CRWG

[32andBelow]

If you didn't know that was a potential outcome before joining the FAA, you did extremely poor and minimal research before choosing a career path. As well as signing a paper that says you're willing to work anywhere the FAA needs you.

They fucking lie to you bro. All through the academy and hiring process they tell you that you can transfer after you certify

 

[TermLimits]

They fucking lie to you bro. All through the academy and hiring process they tell you that you can transfer after you certify

Technically not a lie. You CAN it’s just a matter of having the stars align while simultaneously winning the lottery. It helps to offer a sacrifice of some sorts as well.

 

[RomeoTangoRT]

If you think it can obviously be improved why are you arguing so hard for it? Why do we allow for people with central long island zip codes go to ZNY if that doesn't help? Let's start by doing that for every facility. Show us mail from a zip code within 30 miles of a facility that needs people and you can go there.

Changing this would absolutely help the NAS. IMO it's far and away the best (possibly the only) way to help the NAS.

Last time I applied, I lived 5 minutes down the road from FXE, was intimately familiar with south Florida airspace, it was on my list, I ranked it number 1, and I still got placed in a facility 1,000 miles away lol facility I got assigned was something like number 15 on my ranking.

DankVectorz originally had a great point. “I am willing to work anywhere within the continental US.” God I hate when people on here use that as some sort of catch all argument about staffing. You quite literally don’t have an option. You don’t check that box? Your application process is over immediately. That’s just legal jargon, “but you said you were willing.”

There should be no reason I rank facility ABC number one, another ranks XYZ number one, I get facility XYZ and they get ABC. Even worse when their number one is halfway down my ranking list and vice versa.

 

[FeastOnTheEast]

You’re right this isn’t the Military, but just like the Military you signed up knowing that you will meet the needs of the agency, and the willingness to work anywhere.

I didn’t realize FAA hired people who didn’t want to leave their home town, instead of people who can’t stand being outside of their own comfort zone.

Yeah, there’s not a set minimum years at a facility like the military, but there are people who ERR less than 3 years, then those controllers who are very picky where they only put in the Unicorn Facilities that everyone else wants and stuck for 5+ years, OR they again didn’t do their proper research and picked their first facility with a known staffing issue. You all really take the advice from Academy instructors and HR who were either probably never in the FAA or their Controlling career was short lived? That’s your first problem; being gullible as hell. Do your own research when selecting.

 

[ChuckNovember]

How is that different than everyone who checked the box “I am willing to work anywhere in the United States” when they applied? Which every one of us did on our applications.

Because you are given a choice in one scenario and not the other. If you are in a situation where you have to hold out for facilities in a specific state, you can do that (though it might take longer to get hired). If you just desperately want to get hired so you add a state that has more openings and you get stuck there, that choice was entirely yours.

Much different from the current scenario of "congratulations on finishing top of your class. We understand that we sent people to your hometown five days ago but this week is Albuquerque week so pack your bags!"

This thread is getting spicy but who agrees that allowing new hires more agency in where they go is something that helps the entire workforce?

Genuinely curious on what people think about that because to me it's the only way out. Until that changes I'm a little salty about being told "the only way out is training" when I know the person I'm training already has their hardship paperwork sorted out and they're just waiting for the CPC raise.

 

[TermLimits]

You’re right this isn’t the Military, but just like the Military you signed up knowing that you will meet the needs of the agency, and the willingness to work anywhere.

I didn’t realize FAA hired people who didn’t want to leave their home town, instead of people who can’t stand being outside of their own comfort zone.

Yeah, there’s not a set minimum years at a facility like the military, but there are people who ERR less than 3 years, then those controllers who are very picky where they only put in the Unicorn Facilities that everyone else wants and stuck for 5+ years, OR they again didn’t do their proper research and picked their first facility with a known staffing issue. You all really take the advice from Academy instructors and HR who were either probably never in the FAA or their Controlling career was short lived? That’s your first problem; being gullible as hell. Do your own research when selecting.

The academy staffs facilities that have an inherent need for personnel. Enroute at least has the benefit of the facilities being in/near relatively large to major metro areas.

Terminal is a different story. You’ll be presented with a wide variety of facilities, all of which need people and can’t release for a while (for the most part). Even then, some of the shithole towers or ones that speak to a single plane per week are consistently low on NCEPT ranking lists seeing as no larger facility will take the gamble on someone with minimal experience.

You can do research all you want on academy lists, but in most situations you’re trying to just find the prettiest turd. Occasionally something good comes through.

 

[RomeoTangoRT]

Because you are given a choice in one scenario and not the other. If you are in a situation where you have to hold out for facilities in a specific state, you can do that (though it might take longer to get hired). If you just desperately want to get hired so you add a state that has more openings and you get stuck there, that choice was entirely yours.

Much different from the current scenario of "congratulations on finishing top of your class. We understand that we sent people to your hometown five days ago but this week is Albuquerque week so pack your bags!"

Twice I have applied to the experience bid, been assigned to a facility outside my top ten, and watched my number one choice show back up on multiple lists two, three, four weeks later.

Historically there has been a lot of “when I applied back in the day you just went where they told you and were happy with it.” But I see that also being part of the overarching issue here. Old heads disgruntled because they didn’t get a say in things and got stuck at XYZ facility for 10 years before moving. It’s like people are gatekeeping new hires being happy with where they’re starting out. “If I couldn’t be happy, neither can you.” Without the realization that if new hires get a more desirable facility for themselves, disgruntled controller will have a higher likelihood of being able to transfer.

 

[ChuckNovember]

Twice I have applied to the experience bid, been assigned to a facility outside my top ten, and watched my number one choice show back up on multiple lists two, three, four weeks later.

Historically there has been a lot of “when I applied back in the day you just went where they told you and were happy with it.” But I see that also being part of the overarching issue here. Old heads disgruntled because they didn’t get a say in things and got stuck at XYZ facility for 10 years before moving. It’s like people are gatekeeping new hires being happy with where they’re starting out. “If I couldn’t be happy, neither can you.” Without the realization that if new hires get a more desirable facility for themselves, disgruntled controller will have a higher likelihood of being able to transfer.

Yea its dizzying how quickly people on here go from being labor union activists to "Well it could be even shittier so stfu and take it!". Pack it up, boys! things could be worse so our work here is done lmao.

That's entirely my point that I try to get through to people, too: even if you don't give a shit about the individual who is being screwed over, helping the controllers in these situations helps us because it means less training and revolving staffing.

 

[RomeoTangoRT]

Yea its dizzying how quickly people on here go from being labor union activists to "Well it could be even shittier so stfu and take it!". Pack it up, boys! things could be worse so our work here is done lmao.

That's entirely my point that I try to get through to people, too: even if you don't give a shit about the individual who is being screwed over, helping the controllers in these situations helps us because it means less training and revolving staffing.

I realize I’m probably one of the exceptions having an approach ticket and a tower that was top 30 in terms of traffic volume on my resume without having ever been in the FAA, but it seems the mindset is “I’m in the FAA, fuck these guys who don’t have any experience. Go to a level 4 shithole in Michigan, earn your stripes like the rest of us, and move your way up.” Idk, there’s a lot of gatekeeping that I believe hinders actual growth towards solutions that have a positive effect on staffing. The number of “you agreed to go anywhere” comments I’ve seen are insane given the way you’re backed into that corner.

Just let me go to my honeyhole lvl 8 up down in [insert desirable location] for my first facility so I can be coddled and happy. I’ve been hired four times, I’m qualified to make jokes on my own list of demands ?

 

[ChuckNovember]

Yea maybe not on here because this site is mostly junior controllers but in person most of the "you agreed to go anywhere" comments are from people who did not have to "agree to go anywhere" in my experience.

 

[Move78]

They hardly will even approve them if both places have good staffing.

This is untrue. Every swap is approved if both facilities are green after an NCEPT draft.

This thread is getting spicy but who agrees that allowing new hires more agency in where they go is something that helps the entire workforce?

Genuinely curious on what people think about that because to me it's the only way out. Until that changes I'm a little salty about being told "the only way out is training" when I know the person I'm training already has their hardship paperwork sorted out and they're just waiting for the CPC raise.

They don’t care about helping the workforce so it doesn’t matter

Twice I have applied to the experience bid, been assigned to a facility outside my top ten, and watched my number one choice show back up on multiple lists two, three, four weeks later.

Historically there has been a lot of “when I applied back in the day you just went where they told you and were happy with it.” But I see that also being part of the overarching issue here. Old heads disgruntled because they didn’t get a say in things and got stuck at XYZ facility for 10 years before moving. It’s like people are gatekeeping new hires being happy with where they’re starting out. “If I couldn’t be happy, neither can you.” Without the realization that if new hires get a more desirable facility for themselves, disgruntled controller will have a higher likelihood of being able to transfer.

You can’t gatekeep if you have no control over it

 

[ChuckNovember]

This is untrue. Every swap is approved if both facilities are green after an NCEPT draft.

which I'm sure you'll agree is a ridiculous setup because those conditions are virtually impossible to hit

They don’t care about helping the workforce so it doesn’t matter

they care about staffing triggers and TMIs

 

[ZO]

which I'm sure you'll agree is a ridiculous setup because those conditions are virtually impossible to hit


they care about staffing triggers and TMIs

Why should they not be virtually impossible during a staffing crisis? It does nothing but hurt short term and net neutral long term. If the rare conditions are met, it's allowed. I don't see any problem with the current system.

Again, would love to see more swaps happen, and if we were fat staffed everywhere, I guarantee they would be extremely frequent, and the FAA would have little to no apprehension in that. Just right now it makes zero sense to add leniency to swaps.

 

[32andBelow]

Why should they not be virtually impossible during a staffing crisis? It does nothing but hurt short term and net neutral long term. If the rare conditions are met, it's allowed. I don't see any problem with the current system.

Again, would love to see more swaps happen, and if we were fat staffed everywhere, I guarantee they would be extremely frequent, and the FAA would have little to no apprehension in that. Just right now it makes zero sense to add leniency to swaps.

Because the staffing crisis doesn’t exist in lots of places. There’s zero nuance which leaves some areas extremely over staffed and some areas understaffed. So entire areas are stuck while other areas are working themselves out of multi year staffing shortages

 

[ZO]

Because the staffing crisis doesn’t exist in lots of places. There’s zero nuance which leaves some areas extremely over staffed and some areas understaffed. So entire areas are stuck while other areas are working themselves out of multi year staffing shortages

Yeah the extreme overstaffed places are the ones that may be eligible to swap. Anything else just perpetuates the staffing issue across the NAS.

 

[ChuckNovember]

Why should they not be virtually impossible during a staffing crisis? It does nothing but hurt short term and net neutral long term. If the rare conditions are met, it's allowed. I don't see any problem with the current system.

Again, would love to see more swaps happen, and if we were fat staffed everywhere, I guarantee they would be extremely frequent, and the FAA would have little to no apprehension in that. Just right now it makes zero sense to add leniency to swaps.

Because we have people quitting who would have otherwise stayed until being forced out in facilities where the TOP is ~4 hours and yet are "critically staffed".

 

[32andBelow]

Yeah the extreme overstaffed places are the ones that may be eligible to swap. Anything else just perpetuates the staffing issue across the NAS.

I’m talking about areas inside of facilities. You might as well be at a different center comparing some areas

 

[ZO]

I’m talking about areas inside of facilities. You might as well be at a different center comparing some areas

Ahh. Yeah that is true I'm sure at some places. Should have a bigger allotment of funds for area change incentives at those facilities.

 

[Move78]

which I'm sure you'll agree is a ridiculous setup because those conditions are virtually impossible to hit


they care about staffing triggers and TMIs

Being green at the end of a panel was easy to do for the last 3 years. That’s why lots of people have been complaining that they were green and still released no one.

Staffing triggers and TMIs are exactly the argument to send people where the ‘NAS needs them’ instead of where they would prefer to be.

 

[Soul_Controller]

50000 people apply to one bid and yall muhfuckas think you have the leverage to negotiate a hiring process that favors the applicant more?