Hiring Bid FAA-ATO-19-ALLSRCE-61676

[zealforce]

Last year I completely bombed the second part - I had a brain fart on which direction was left or right, didn't quite understand what I was doing, missed most of them due to time, and maybe got 3 right on the entire section when I started just randomly hitting yes or no. I completely skipped the math on the radar portion and maybe had 6-8 collisions and somehow I still ranked best qualified.

I don't think anyone quite knows how they grade or rank these tests. Maybe work experience even comes into play? All I know is I can't wait to see how I placed this year, because I need a change in careers.

I don’t want to sound offensive, but are you a white male?
I have had a theory recently that minorities/women are given some extra points because the ATC job is heavily white and male.

ofc FAA has said that race and gender does not play a role in the selection process, but let’s be realistic, everyone has quotas to fill. I’m saying that as a non-white person.

 

[zealforce]

Nope.....just an instructor that has been doing this for 30 years. There are some good controllers that come out of pool 2.....but they are far rarer than the pool 1 candidates.....should drain pool 1, and only hire from pool 2 once its gone....

Do you have data/numbers backing that up? Would love to see the differences.

 

[Loony]

Most CTI schools are pretty bad, the one I went to had phenomenal professors, the only problem was, it was 99perc book work and nothing related to hands on air traffic work in simulations etc etc

UND and Beaver, I'll vouch for really teach the students well

As less and less people apply for CTI and graduate with their degree, the smaller pool 1 is gonna be over the years. Vets and prior experience are just gonna apply for experienced bids

 

[ChuckMastaT]

I do have numbers....all kinds of numbers......for instance 94% of the graduates of Beaver Community College ATC program pass OKC......Embry Riddle is around 34% of the students that make it to OKC.....and lots more....but they mean nothing.....the vast majority of ATC schools out there only impart a little experience of ATC, and they are just Aviation oriented studies, designed to take students money and give little ATC directed expertise...but there are some exceptional schools...like Beaver (graduates there are required to get their CTO and Pilots License and use a system fundamentally the same as OKC)....and South Dakota...…..but they are ALL pool 1.....with the, shall we say, less ATC oriented schools, dragging down the stats.........but even with existing problems.....on the whole, Pool 1 does better......

Dam, thats a lot of ellipsis...............

ANYWAYS, I'de be curious to see a few things, mostly what the non-CTI school people pass/fail rate at the academy, and how many people of the "94% of the graduates from Beaver Community College ATC program" actually made it to a facility and didn't wash out compaired to non-cti wash rates.

 

[kshaky]

I don’t want to sound offensive, but are you a white male?
I have had a theory recently that minorities/women are given some extra points because the ATC job is heavily white and male.

ofc FAA has said that race and gender does not play a role in the selection process, but let’s be realistic, everyone has quotas to fill. I’m saying that as a non-white person.

Not that one example proves your theory wrong . . . but I am a minority with a Computer Science degree from one of the best public universities in the country. About 2 years experience as a software engineer and other high responsibility work experience to go with it. I scored best qualified last year and did not get a TOL.

It is very expensive for taxpayers and the FAA for people to go to the academy and fail. So expensive that I'd imagine that they are focused on choosing candidates that they think will pass.

 

[tylertrend]

Not that one example proves your theory wrong . . . but I am a minority with a Computer Science degree from one of the best public universities in the country. About 2 years experience as a software engineer and other high responsibility work experience to go with it. I scored best qualified last year and did not get a TOL.

It is very expensive for taxpayers and the FAA for people to go to the academy and fail. So expensive that I'd imagine that they are focused on choosing candidates that they think will pass.

ROFL. Respectfully, that couldn't be further from the truth. There is plenty of public (and private) data that confirm the FAA isn't too concerned with taxpayer burden and they're just playing a numbers game with who they hire just like every other agency. Checkin' boxes on the list.

 

[zealforce]

Not that one example proves your theory wrong . . . but I am a minority with a Computer Science degree from one of the best public universities in the country. About 2 years experience as a software engineer and other high responsibility work experience to go with it. I scored best qualified last year and did not get a TOL.

It is very expensive for taxpayers and the FAA for people to go to the academy and fail. So expensive that I'd imagine that they are focused on choosing candidates that they think will pass.

Do you know how much our government wastes in taxpayer money.......if your argument is saying that the government is wisely spending taxpayer money you are quantum leaping to conclusions lol

like I said, it's just a theory. There's literally no evidence backing it up, so no real need to argue what the FAA hires based on (because we have no proof besides pool 1/pool 2 candidacy.

Another theory- if there was outright proof that Pool 1 candidates were better than Pool 2 in terms of long-term success rates, the FAA and CTI schools would be parading the information around as a way to get more people to sign up. Considering we haven't seen anything like that, I think there is no difference in long-term candidacy. Like Glide47 said, some bad CTI schools drag down the stats of the good ones overall.

 

[Etkini]

I don’t want to sound offensive, but are you a white male?
I have had a theory recently that minorities/women are given some extra points because the ATC job is heavily white and male.

ofc FAA has said that race and gender does not play a role in the selection process, but let’s be realistic, everyone has quotas to fill. I’m saying that as a non-white person.

It's funny you said that, I almost included the fact that I am a 30 year old white male in my post. I currently work as an LEO and have seen the preferences given to women and minorities. For my department's civil service tests, those groups are given +5-15 points depending on the level\rank of tests. Spanish speaking individuals are given preference over any other multi-lingual individuals as well, especially for promotions.

I don't know how the FAA works, so I have no idea if that happens as well though.

 

[yngwie]

I highly doubt that FAA HR is engaging in discriminatory and illegal hiring practices--a scheme that could be easily proven by any HR employee who wanted to come forward with that information.

The more likely explanation is that you have a victim complex and use it to spread your racist and sexist agenda.

 

[MJ]

discriminatory and illegal hiring practices

Yeah, that would never happen.

 

[yngwie]

Yeah, that would never happen.

And yet we still have no proof that that was the purpose of the BQ. Zealforce's claim is that they're giving extra points to minorities and women now, which is pure bullshit.

 

[MJ]

And yet we still have no proof that that was the purpose of the BQ. Zealforce's claim is that they're giving extra points to minorities and women now, which is pure bullshit.

100% wrong. The stated goal of the BioQ was to increase hiring of designated groups. It was written in black in white. It was a catalyst which ended with congress stepping in.

 

[yngwie]

It was written in black in white.

Link to this writing?

And while we're at it, anything to back up this claim that minorities get bonus points?

 

[MJ]

Link to this writing?

lmgtfy

 

[yngwie]

lmgtfy

Nice zinger. Since you don't have anything to actually show, I'll start with a statement from a report as a basis of discussion and you can show me something to refute it.
https://www.faa.gov/data_research/research/med_humanfacs/oamtechreports/1980s/media/am83-06.pdf

"After a new pass/fail training program was implemented at the Academy in 1976, biographical data on trainees were examined to determine the relationship between biographical variables and Academy success rates. A new set of 21 questions was added to the BQ in May 1980, and responses to the revised BQ were analyzed to determine the underlying factor structure of the questionnaire and the relationship of those factors to success or failure at the Academy. Further research examined the relationship between various types of military experience and performance at the Academy."

What follows that are three studies, including methodology, on their determination that the BQ showed some success in selecting succesful candidates. Nothing about race. Nothing about gender.

And once more, this says nothing about this current "theory" here that the FAA is giving bonus points to minorities.

 

[zealforce]

I have had a theory recently that minorities/women are given some extra points because the ATC job is heavily white and male.

And yet we still have no proof that that was the purpose of the BQ. Zealforce's claim is that they're giving extra points to minorities and women now, which is pure bullshit.

Earlier I said:
"like I said, it's just a theory. There's literally no evidence backing it up, so no real need to argue what the FAA hires based on (because we have no proof besides pool 1/pool 2 candidacy. "

I never made a claim, it is just pure conjecture that is more likely to be false than true.

I am not trying to push a racist/sexist agenda lol

I don't care what race or gender the ATC is, when it comes to safety it's whoever can do the job most competently and without error.

The BQ is gone- to me, the FAA losing that court battle in Congress is evidence that they DID push for certain racial groups to be selected for in the ATSAT.

I am not white. I would probably benefit from the BQ still existing. My theory (which is just CONJECTURE, NOT A STATEMENT OF FACT THAT THE FAA IS DOING OR NOT DOING ANYTHING) is that the FAA pursues this in more covert means than something as overt as the BQ. I am simply wondering that if they were to do something, what methods they would use.

Do I have a victim complex if I benefit from the old system? No, because I believe that the job should be race/gender blind and should just hire the damn person who can stop planes from colliding and killing hundreds of people.

If white men are the best suited for the job, that's fine. If black men are, fine. If Asian women are, fine.

But everyone should be given an equal chance to apply for the job and a fair chance to show that they are capable, which the ATSA (to the best of our collective ignorance) does.

 

[yngwie]

lmgtfy

Here's one more report from your lmgtfy that actually says that the BQ could have adversely impacted black candidates and comes to the conclusion:

"The results of this study suggest that an empiricallykeyed, response option-scored biodata instrument has validity as a predictor of ATCS job performance ratings. From a test fairness perspective, biodata yielded nearly identical mean scores across gender and ethnicity scores that were well below ds typically found for tests of general mental ability—which tend to yield high subgroup differences of around 1.0. The results of this study follow the typical research findings on biodata—that it holds promise for prediction while at the same time causing less adverse impact potential relative to tests of general cognitive ability."
https://libraryonline.erau.edu/online-full-text/faa-aviation-medicine-reports/AM12-19.pdf

But I guess you were probably referring to the Tucker Carlson videos to support your argument.

 

[zealforce]

Here's one more report from your lmgtfy that actually says that the BQ could have adversely impacted black candidates and comes to the conclusion:

"The results of this study suggest that an empiricallykeyed, response option-scored biodata instrument has validity as a predictor of ATCS job performance ratings. From a test fairness perspective, biodata yielded nearly identical mean scores across gender and ethnicity scores that were well below ds typically found for tests of general mental ability—which tend to yield high subgroup differences of around 1.0. The results of this study follow the typical research findings on biodata—that it holds promise for prediction while at the same time causing less adverse impact potential relative to tests of general cognitive ability."
https://libraryonline.erau.edu/online-full-text/faa-aviation-medicine-reports/AM12-19.pdf

But I guess you were probably referring to the Tucker Carlson videos to support your argument.

Why would you admit that MJ is right then try to demean him by saying he got his sources from an American conservative political commentator?

Just admit you were wrong lol

 

[ChuckMastaT]

 

[yngwie]

Why would you admit that MJ is right then try to demean him by saying he got his sources from an American conservative political commentator?

Just admit you were wrong lol

Because he wasn't right. When he referred to the FAA trying to increase hiring of "designated groups" I know he's referring to minorities and women, just like you were. But in fact, that study showed that that's not true. It was not targetted to impact any race or gender, and if it's "written in black and white" then I'm guessing he means it was written on fox news.