FAA Safety Review Team Report 11/16/2023

[32andBelow]

Was it? It's a pretty short era and I've never seen any stats on the training success rate from those couple years.

The bioQ is like 10 years old now…but here was a big pool of cti refugees that were applying through it during the first half. I think the current trainees are the representation of current hiring.

It’s gonna take several years to get CTIs spun back up

 

[Acquired Taste]

And the good ctis are shells of their former selves because it became pointless to go there anymore.

Can we just admit the BioQ only hiring era was a disaster

Are you implying that the Obama admin ending the very discriminatory CTI preferential hiring system in the name of more diversity was a bad thing? That's awfully racist of you as we know only rich white kids were able to afford to go to CTI and have an interest in ATC. This is a travesty that Biden admin is reverting back to the ways of the good ol boy racist system of the George H W Bush days. The current system is working just fine!

 

[32andBelow]

Are you implying that the Obama admin ending the very discriminatory CTI preferential hiring system in the name of more diversity was a bad thing? That's awfully racist of you as we know only rich white kids were able to afford to go to CTI and have an interest in ATC. This is a travesty that Biden admin is reverting back to the ways of the good ol boy racist system of the George H W Bush days. The current system is working just fine!

Idk why they couldn’t just keep cti and then have a public hiring on top of it like they used to. I don’t think cti is enough training to work traffic but it does a good job finding people who are actually interested in aviation.

 

[PooseMaGoose]

Are you implying that the Obama admin ending the very discriminatory CTI preferential hiring system in the name of more diversity was a bad thing? That's awfully racist of you as we know only rich white kids were able to afford to go to CTI and have an interest in ATC. This is a travesty that Biden admin is reverting back to the ways of the good ol boy racist system of the George H W Bush days. The current system is working just fine!

AUS is widely regarded as the facility which exemplifies the benefits of focusing on diversity in our hiring.

 

[WavesAndClouds]

CURRENTLY students who went to CTI are exempt from basics. Strong rumors of direct hire for CTI graduates now.

I guess I am wrong then! That might be the change. Confusing.

 

[FAABurger]

So, if they’re doing direct hire from CTI schools, are they rehiring the academy failure CTI students?

 

[FightingIrish2012]

So, if they’re doing direct hire from CTI schools, are they rehiring the academy failure CTI students?

They would probably try not to re-hire people like that, but HR sucks and they will probably slip through the cracks, in 08-11’ they rehired OTS to the academy who failed once before multiple times.

 

[PooseMaGoose]

They would probably try not to re-hire people like that, but HR sucks and they will probably slip through the cracks, in 08-11’ they rehired OTS to the academy who failed once before multiple times.

Questions like this are the exact questions that high-level decision makers fail to consider. Unrelated, but parallel to the idea: shouldn't people incarcerated for non-violent mary-j charges be exonerated if their state later legalizes it? If i was a CTI who had a bad day at the academy and failed only to be turned down for a career opportunity I am rightly qualified for after a large policy change.... well let's just say I hope the agency considered this scenario and has an answer because it sounds like another prime set-up for some lawsuits.

 

[FAABurger]

Questions like this are the exact questions that high-level decision makers fail to consider. Unrelated, but parallel to the idea: shouldn't people incarcerated for non-violent mary-j charges be exonerated if their state later legalizes it? If i was a CTI who had a bad day at the academy and failed only to be turned down for a career opportunity I am rightly qualified for after a large policy change.... well let's just say I hope the agency considered this scenario and has an answer because it sounds like another prime set-up for some lawsuits.

I feel like the CTI washouts would file a lawsuit of sorts against the FAA. I think direct hire, in theory, could be a good idea but there’s a lot of flaws within itself.

However, with that dank reef, I don’t think it matters, since it’s not federally legal.

 

[the inquirer]

Questions like this are the exact questions that high-level decision makers fail to consider. Unrelated, but parallel to the idea: shouldn't people incarcerated for non-violent mary-j charges be exonerated if their state later legalizes it? If i was a CTI who had a bad day at the academy and failed only to be turned down for a career opportunity I am rightly qualified for after a large policy change.... well let's just say I hope the agency considered this scenario and has an answer because it sounds like another prime set-up for some lawsuits.

Are you a CPC? Are you a CTI grad?
I’m both. And have certified at an 11 and 12 facility. I went to the jankiest cti that taught almost nothing. Other guys in okc in my class failed that went to the fancy places with 100k loans. Academy is easy. If they couldn’t pass it, they shouldn’t get another shot. Waste of taxpayer dollars.

 

[FightingIrish2012]

I feel like the CTI washouts would file a lawsuit of sorts against the FAA. I think direct hire, in theory, could be a good idea but there’s a lot of flaws within itself.

However, with that dank reef, I don’t think it matters, since it’s not federally legal.

I think the CTI washouts have no to right to sue as they never got past probation, and under probation you can legally be fired for any reason with or without cause.

 

[Sassyquatch]

Are you a CPC? Are you a CTI grad?
I’m both. And have certified at an 11 and 12 facility. I went to the jankiest cti that taught almost nothing. Other guys in okc in my class failed that went to the fancy places with 100k loans. Academy is easy. If they couldn’t pass it, they shouldn’t get another shot. Waste of taxpayer dollars.

I know of only a couple of CTI grads that failed the academy and I truly believe it comes down to nerves. I also don't keep up with most of the people I went to college with but it's a small community and you end up hearing from other people. Obviously there will be some people who don't have the aptitude for this job. But seriously, at the academy, EVERYTHING is on the line. You get to your facility and do you know how many opportunities they give trainees now? It's not "you messed up this sequence due to nerves this 1 time, you're fired". It's a series of mess-ups over the course of months (for some people, years) to fire them. I think they should give CTI grads another opportunity if they even want it at this point. We need the bodies and someone wants it badly enough to put themselves in debt over it.

 

[PooseMaGoose]

Are you a CPC? Are you a CTI grad?
I’m both. And have certified at an 11 and 12 facility. I went to the jankiest cti that taught almost nothing. Other guys in okc in my class failed that went to the fancy places with 100k loans. Academy is easy. If they couldn’t pass it, they shouldn’t get another shot. Waste of taxpayer dollars.

Because you asked. I am not a CTI grad. Air Force terminal, 9 -->12 en route.

"The academy is easy."

Perhaps. Perhaps not. That's highly subjective. The point isn't whether the academy is easy or not. The point is if the academy does an acceptable job at screening people who will have the highest probability of achieving FPL. I don't know the answer to that. I don't have data to support a statement one way or another. What I am saying is that there are some people who washed out of the academy that would've achieved CPC (just the same as there are people who passed the academy and became CPC who have absolutely have no business working traffic). All it takes is one bad day on the wrong day in OKC and your FAA career is over. For the most part, I'd say OKC does a decent job of removing people that may not have success at the facility level... that's just a guess though. I generally hold the stance that despite it's imperfections, OKC is a net positive because we are removing people who haven't proven that they are worth facility time and resources in the form of OJT... even if that means removing a few that deserve it but had one bad day (and that day happened to be a day they were running two check rides for a final grade.) I'd rather have X trainees in NAS OJT with a 85% success rate than X+50% more OJT with a 40% success rate. It would be a bigger waste of OJTI time.

So you are a CTI grad, a CPC, and certified at an 11 and a 12. That's great. Three cheers for you. I always find it odd when controllers try to use their credentials as if they are some sort of justification on how their opinion is correct. What we should care about is how the agency can get the most amount of bodies with the highest likelihood of certifying into OJT. But then again... you did certify at an 11 AND a 12 so you might be right.

 

[Termine]

Unrelated, but parallel to the idea: shouldn't people incarcerated for non-violent mary-j charges be exonerated if their state later legalizes it?

Yes. And some states have programs to expunge convictions, for example New York, Illinois, Michigan. Of course this doesn't help if you were convicted of a federal crime because it's still federally illegal.

 

[PooseMaGoose]

Yes. And some states have programs to expunge convictions, for example New York, Illinois, Michigan. Of course this doesn't help if you were convicted of a federal crime because it's still federally illegal.

Hell yissss. Thanks for that info.

 

[AB19]

I know many people that didn't make it at the academy that could have certified at a facility. Not saying the academy is useless but I feel like there's a lot of people it misses getting into the agency that would make it

 

[the inquirer]

Because you asked. I am not a CTI grad. Air Force terminal, 9 -->12 en route.

"The academy is easy."

Perhaps. Perhaps not. That's highly subjective. The point isn't whether the academy is easy or not. The point is if the academy does an acceptable job at screening people who will have the highest probability of achieving FPL. I don't know the answer to that. I don't have data to support a statement one way or another. What I am saying is that there are some people who washed out of the academy that would've achieved CPC (just the same as there are people who passed the academy and became CPC who have absolutely have no business working traffic). All it takes is one bad day on the wrong day in OKC and your FAA career is over. For the most part, I'd say OKC does a decent job of removing people that may not have success at the facility level... that's just a guess though. I generally hold the stance that despite it's imperfections, OKC is a net positive because we are removing people who haven't proven that they are worth facility time and resources in the form of OJT... even if that means removing a few that deserve it but had one bad day (and that day happened to be a day they were running two check rides for a final grade.) I'd rather have X trainees in NAS OJT with a 85% success rate than X+50% more OJT with a 40% success rate. It would be a bigger waste of OJTI time.

So you are a CTI grad, a CPC, and certified at an 11 and a 12. That's great. Three cheers for you. I always find it odd when controllers try to use their credentials as if they are some sort of justification on how their opinion is correct. What we should care about is how the agency can get the most amount of bodies with the highest likelihood of certifying into OJT. But then again... you did certify at an 11 AND a 12 so you might be right.

Only reason I mentioned where I certified is more so to say that I have been around a lot of other trainees with differing backgrounds. The academy gives you very black and white rules to follow and they try to eliminate any grey. That’s why I think it’s easy. During OJT, there are a lot more things that are grey and/or you needing to make a decision how to solve it. The academy is more like, if this happens, then do this. And as this thread is about the safety report, if someone already failed okc once, I wouldn’t waste my money on them. Sure we need more people. But I don’t want the person next to me to be the one who was given 50 second chances to certify. Otherwise I’d be questioning if the planes I’m getting from him are on the correct route and altitude.

 

[Atc0]

They should run a mid shift at the academy instead of just the day/swing they currently run… Move 50% more trainees though the same classroom space in the same amount of time and get em acclimated to the glorious life of shit work.

Shift work*** damn autocorrect

They are having trouble staffing instructors how the academy is run now, I heard many have to work double shifts already

 

[FightingIrish2012]

They are having trouble staffing instructors how the academy is run now, I heard many have to work double shifts already

This is the funniest thing about the idea of building a new academy. Since they can barely staff it in low COLA, nice weather, Oklahoma where they train all types of FAA shit there but ATC is the recognized kings of the campus that the others look up to (or are at least forced to bow down to), how do they think they will staff an ATC only academy in shithole, high COLA Long Island or Chicago lol?

Not to mention most instructors are retired controllers who had passion for the field and were still somewhat "fresh" and able to work after retirement. When this generation of controllers retires after working 6 day weeks for a decade or more, I don't see them being in a hurry to continue to work full time plus at an academy.

 

[32andBelow]

This is the funniest thing about the idea of building a new academy. Since they can barely staff it in low COLA, nice weather, Oklahoma where they train all types of FAA shit there but ATC is the recognized kings of the campus that the others look up to (or are at least forced to bow down to), how do they think they will staff an ATC only academy in shithole, high COLA Long Island or Chicago lol?

Not to mention most instructors are retired controllers who had passion for the field and were still somewhat "fresh" and able to work after retirement. When this generation of controllers retires after working 6 day weeks for a decade or more, I don't see them being in a hurry to continue to work full time plus at an academy.

That’s why they should just train locally. Every facility has retired controllers that can teach the new hires directly on their assigned airspace. Just spread the academy money around. At least for enroute.