NATCA leadership on those leaving the union

[Mascotmouse]

We haven't known that from the beginning and youre being a liar/revisionist yourself to try and paint some picture that isn't true. There have been plenty of reports of healthy adults having complications and death from covid. But please tell me more Dr. Facebook. You're an air traffic controller that probably has a high school diploma as your highest form of education yet you heard a little bit of info and now think youre some genius. Dunning-Kruger in full effect.

Aren’t you getting all your information from mainstream media? It’s the same. You’re putting another person down because of your beliefs. Same thing Mick did, that’s the issue. Instead of Mick shaming the people who left the union, he could have brought people together and encouraged members to remind non members what the union stands for.

 

[AnyTrafficPleaseAdvise]

At the time, it was because of a very transmissible and possibly very dangerous virus with a lot of unknowns. Boohooing a possible advancement delay to possibly save a lot of lives? Nice. After the fact, yes it was big time overkill, but it wasn't when they didn't know what was being dealt with, and we didn't *really* know much for quite a while because everything was locked down keeping things in check. And a lot of the later stuff has been general federal government requirements, not NATCA.

It wasn't anywhere near two years, at least where I am. And it isn't the union's decision on whether or not to pay us hazard pay, but cool story. Yes it sucks worse now than before, believe me, I'm probably dealing with worse than you are.
What did you want to happen? Certify a bunch of shitter devs on 10% traffic so they could kill a bunch of people when traffic picked up again? Things wouldn't have happened much differently in the end anyway. Lots of delays.

I can’t speak for every facility at the NAS, but at ZTL we had training pauses 3 or 4 times. The most recent of which started the week of Christmas 2021 and ended a month later in January 2022, so 2 years for us would be accurate. During at least one of the pauses D-Side training was paused, but R-Side training was allowed. There were multiple instances of D-Side trainees working their trainers D-side, but they couldn’t trade seats and be trained as an R-Side by their trainer (Try and make sense of that).
NATCA should have either advocated for training to be fully shutdown and D-Sides to remain clear of the facility (Which isn’t what I wanted but at least there’s a logical path to follow for that), or they should’ve pushed for normal training to resume since Trainees were required to work and not limiting their exposure to Covid anyways.
We had some people fully certify here in 2021 with lower traffic numbers. We would just combine sectors to make it busy enough to justify a checkride. We have a lot of people here who have been here 3-5 years and haven’t fully certified yet due to no fault of their own, coupled with a horrible staffing problem that was exacerbated by these pauses. I don’t recall the union ever condemning those decisions, but I did receive multiple emails about why Gender specific aviation terminology makes me a bigot.

 

[MikeSierra]

lol. no. When the lockdowns happened, we knew almost nothing about it because it was a BRAND NEW VIRUS. Not enough to roll the dice on a bunch of people lives anyway. So they did the safe thing. You're in a safety profession, remember?

What you're talking about is stuff we know *now* with a much larger data set.

Found the guy who's got CNN on the TV in the break room..

With all that cultist talking points you spew, there was PLENTY of data that was suppressed by big news no matter what side of the political spectrum you claim to be on.
You can't tell me social media companies didn't block real data from being exposed. People that spoke out with real facts based off their own research and testing as doctors did, they got cancelled.

On top of all that, this wasn't a virus they knew nothing about. Prove me wrong.

 

[Kramer]

The fact that they resort to coercive/manipulative tactics to make people pay dues in so many facilities and regions is really telling. Trainees are basically told they will wash out and be terminated if they don’t pay dues. CPC’s are told they’ll never be able to transfer if they don’t pay dues. Those people in the NE are now essentially being told they’ll be subjected to a toxic work environment unless they rejoin the union. Some instances really give off mafia-ish vibes. “Pay us, or else your life at work will be a living hell.”

I just left this year. I expected everything he said. But I don't really care because I'm not a trouble maker and just want to do my job for 8 hours and then go home. Not looking to scam and leave 1 hour early every day. Not looking to scam mid shifts. No one here swaps shifts anyways. We don't have WiFi. And I don't care about food runs. Life is good honestly. Exactly nothing changed except getting "blacklisted (but idgaf)" and my check is a little fatter.

 

[Cmsgthokage]

I didn’t even know you could leave the union. How do they bid RDOs/leave? I guess I’m new to the FAA less than 3 years in.

 

[AB19]

I don't understand how you're so pro big government and always advocate for the government to have more power but also don't trust that the government will treat you well if union isn't there to look out for you

I don't think the government would mistreat us without a union. but we wouldn't enjoy our luxuries that we do enjoy thanks to the union. I don't think we would have nearly as many/as long as breaks as we currently do, would be thrown under the bus anytime something happens. Not to mention being pro big government has almost nothing to do with how they treat people. Governments aren't infallible, our own has done many things that are sick and disgusting in the past, like taking away the rights of unions, and not allowing a union its greatest power, the power to strike. I'm not sure why you think a small government would be any better?

We haven't known that from the beginning and youre being a liar/revisionist yourself to try and paint some picture that isn't true. There have been plenty of reports of healthy adults having complications and death from covid. But please tell me more Dr. Facebook. You're an air traffic controller that probably has a high school diploma as your highest form of education yet you heard a little bit of info and now think youre some genius. Dunning-Kruger in full effect.

Yo man I know you're new but he has no interest in honest discussion, he's the ben shapiro of the site

 

[Atcmemesiscringey]

My biggest issue is the lack of transparency. Over the past 2 years, there have been A LOT of topics controllers have been concerned about(contract extension, training, vaccine mandate, mask mandate, hazard pay, etc). You never heard anything from NATCA that wasn't incredibly vague or just completely silent. If you want your members to not assume you're doing nothing about these issues, tell us what you're doing about it. And I don't want a canned message that's always lockstep with with the FAA. Collaboration is important, but when is the last time they've sent out anything that wasn't completely in line with how the FAA also felt?

 

[blarg]

Found the guy who's got CNN on the TV in the break room..

With all that cultist talking points you spew, there was PLENTY of data that was suppressed by big news no matter what side of the political spectrum you claim to be on.
You can't tell me social media companies didn't block real data from being exposed. People that spoke out with real facts based off their own research and testing as doctors did, they got cancelled.

On top of all that, this wasn't a virus they knew nothing about. Prove me wrong.

lol. sure. In March 2020? Please show me the data available from then. You'll prove yourself wrong and would've saved us both some typing time.

I can’t speak for every facility at the NAS, but at ZTL we had training pauses 3 or 4 times. The most recent of which started the week of Christmas 2021 and ended a month later in January 2022, so 2 years for us would be accurate. During at least one of the pauses D-Side training was paused, but R-Side training was allowed. There were multiple instances of D-Side trainees working their trainers D-side, but they couldn’t trade seats and be trained as an R-Side by their trainer (Try and make sense of that).
NATCA should have either advocated for training to be fully shutdown and D-Sides to remain clear of the facility (Which isn’t what I wanted but at least there’s a logical path to follow for that), or they should’ve pushed for normal training to resume since Trainees were required to work and not limiting their exposure to Covid anyways.
We had some people fully certify here in 2021 with lower traffic numbers. We would just combine sectors to make it busy enough to justify a checkride. We have a lot of people here who have been here 3-5 years and haven’t fully certified yet due to no fault of their own, coupled with a horrible staffing problem that was exacerbated by these pauses. I don’t recall the union ever condemning those decisions, but I did receive multiple emails about why Gender specific aviation terminology makes me a bigot.

I know. We've dealt with the exact same stuff, but going from initial lockdown to starting training again is the time frame to look at. Not the point at which there is never again a pause (there probably will be again the way things are looking heh). Should they still be happening? I don't know, but this newest COVID wave is starting to decimate this district.

I've also never said upper level NATCA is perfect or even good, but the hindsight is 20/20 crowd here is hilarious thinking they knew better about everything the whooooole time. Or leaving because they don't like NCEPT. I don't like it either. Got a better idea? One other than "just let people go where they want to go", because believe it or not, the FAA has to actually staff facilities at marginally functional levels? Then present it to everyone and/or run for national yourself. We could always go back to pre-NCEPT where they gave people 8+ year release dates instead, so your desired facility just said "no thanks, we don't want to wait that long" instead. It's never been good, and it never will be good, until the FAA decides to staff facilities with the proper numbers of people, which they're never going to do. In other words, it's never going to be better, so might as well suck it up, buttercups.

 

[Electricfence]

I think the big picture here is that Mick thinks/knows that he is untouchable. Same with all of them at the National level. Any one who challenges anything, as stated before in this thread, is ostracized. Don’t include them in chow runs? Imagine if the management put something out like that… reprisal, retaliation, hostile environment etc. but it’s ok because like he said you aren’t valued and are replaceable.

Many of the people we work with feel that way about their career. Managment struggles to do shit, even when they do they suck at it mostly. and without the union these people wouldn’t have a job. I mean honestly how bad do you have to actually screw up for something to happen to you.

He represents some portion of what he’s seen from others in the career that’s why he feels comfortable doing this.

 

[Bandit117]

To be clear, the analogy here is referring to people who reap the benefits of being represented by a union (namely job protections, workplace safety provisions, and raises) without contributing to continued existence of the union (paying dues). You're saying you'd rather be separate from the rest of the bargaining unit and negotiate your own pay, leave approval policy, dress code, etc, etc with FAA management?

That said it is freaking stupid that they didn't renegotiate the contract and it's disappointing that nobody ran against ANY of the NEB last election. That speaks volumes on its own, and if you wanted to talk about starting your own union (with blackjack and hookers!) that might be a valid point of debate, although it's very difficult to de-certify a union and if you tried to do it and failed you would definitely be ostracized by the current union.

I’ve seen an RVP tell people who complained about being stuck at a ncept locked facility, who made reasonable observations that even if they max their current band, they will remain below the national average and median pay, and that off the street people are getting placed into facilities they have ERRs out and dismiss the complaints by saying “it’s not about the money”. If it’s not about the money like this RVP says, why does NATCA need our money?

My biggest issue is the lack of transparency. Over the past 2 years, there have been A LOT of topics controllers have been concerned about(contract extension, training, vaccine mandate, mask mandate, hazard pay, etc). You never heard anything from NATCA that wasn't incredibly vague or just completely silent. If you want your members to not assume you're doing nothing about these issues, tell us what you're doing about it. And I don't want a canned message that's always lockstep with with the FAA. Collaboration is important, but when is the last time they've sent out anything that wasn't completely in line with how the FAA also felt?

It’s valid. We have to ask at what point does collaboration become collusion?

 

[MKK]

To be clear, the analogy here is referring to people who reap the benefits of being represented by a union (namely job protections, workplace safety provisions, and raises) without contributing to continued existence of the union (paying dues). You're saying you'd rather be separate from the rest of the bargaining unit and negotiate your own pay, leave approval policy, dress code, etc, etc with FAA management?

That said it is freaking stupid that they didn't renegotiate the contract and it's disappointing that nobody ran against ANY of the NEB last election. That speaks volumes on its own, and if you wanted to talk about starting your own union (with blackjack and hookers!) that might be a valid point of debate, although it's very difficult to de-certify a union and if you tried to do it and failed you would definitely be ostracized by the current union.

The restaurant is the faa. I can go to the restaurant and order my food and complain and pay my own bill. Thank you

 

[Smitty]

This already one of the top 10 threads in P65 history. Thank God this site isn't run by the bitchboys on Reddit!

 

[MKK]

You guys acting like ATC Wouldn’t exist without NaTcA ???

 

[MikeSierra]

In March 2020?

Absolutely. You think .gov would actually tell the public what the fuck is really happening? They used fear porn and propaganda to control all of you into wanting to bubble wrap the world. It worked and look at us. We all chose a side, and a divided nation is what they got.

If you want data, you're going to have to crawl out of your shell and look for yourself. I've played this game in showing online monikers real proof and data. It's okay to ask questions. Try it.

 

[Robert_Boucher]

Leaving the union isn't the answer. The national leadership is a cancer. Cut them out. I just hope it's not too late. The fact that no one ran against Santa may be an indication that the membership is so apathetic that it's too far gone.

He didn't run he was chosen as the Pres. I know for a fact that at least one other RVP wanted to run but it was deemed better for him to stay in his current position to help mentor the new RVPs.

 

[HenryTheAce]

He didn't run he was chosen as the Pres. I know for a fact that at least one other RVP wanted to run but it was deemed better for him to stay in his current position to help mentor the new RVPs.

So they just sugar coated it and gave him the natca handjob on how good of a mentor he is and is better suited in that role.…. kinda like in BOB how Colonel Sink told Capt Sobel the war efforts needed him elsewhere and that they were all counting on him

 

[blarg]

Absolutely. You think .gov would actually tell the public what the fuck is really happening? They used fear porn and propaganda to control all of you into wanting to bubble wrap the world. It worked and look at us. We all chose a side, and a divided nation is what they got.

If you want data, you're going to have to crawl out of your shell and look for yourself. I've played this game in showing online monikers real proof and data. It's okay to ask questions. Try it.

Still waiting.

 

[Homsar]

We haven't known that from the beginning and youre being a liar/revisionist yourself to try and paint some picture that isn't true. There have been plenty of reports of healthy adults having complications and death from covid. But please tell me more Dr. Facebook. You're an air traffic controller that probably has a high school diploma as your highest form of education yet you heard a little bit of info and now think youre some genius. Dunning-Kruger in full effect.

Yikes.

Ad hominem - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Read up, because you need some studying, that post is a cesspool of AdHoms.

Yes, a simple look at mortality rates from the first few months showed us who was most vulnerable, and who wasn't. "Plenty" of reports of "healthy adults" is anecdotal and doesn't override actual mortality data of what categories of people are most at-risk.

 

[Dousand24]

#BringBack5-10

 

[ManBearPig]

What was different at NIW this year? They says it’s the premier legislative event.

Extremely mixed messaging on "the ask". Supposed to be a training event, but less training than years past.