Would you strike?

[TangoBearFox]

Everyone would lose their security clearance and be terminated - at the very least. The organizers would probably face jail time and hefty fines. Maybe, conveniently, call you a domestic terrorist.

Yeah just 20 controllers from specific facilities going to the doctor, and no one taking the overtime would accomplish the same results.

 

[KiloZulu]

They used military controllers before. Also aged out means nothing when the rules change. You can't ground stop the entire country indefinitely. Airlines made over $200 billion last year. That's not including FedEx/UPS, all the hotels, all the industries making money off tourist like taxis/uber, theme parks, etc etc.

It's better to slow the NAS down and fill in anyone available than to allow a strike that could last an unknown period. Plus if we do it this time, what stops us from doing it again and again like they do in France? The government isn't going to allow that.

I just don't think it's a wise move. You can be arrested and it has happened. The government will win.

I don't think you're wrong, but didn't the military do a lot more enroute ATC in the 80s? I could see them taking over terminal facilities (theoretically), but there's no way they have the capabilities or skill to replace the thousands of enroute controllers nowadays.

 

[Raise when?]

Only thing I would disagree with there is the privatization trigger if there was an actual strike. We are too involved in real time civil/military operations with interest to the national security of air traffic for the government to let us belong to some private entity. In a way, it would be like them privatizing the capital police to some private security company instead of them belonging to the uniformed officer component of the secret service. Granted we aren’t law enforcement in any capacity, but the sentiment remains the same. The smaller VFR contract towers, sure. But I guarantee you Uncle Sam wants to have positive command and control over the more major facilities especially radar. And if they really wanted to privatize us, explicitly for striking, why didn’t they do it in 81?

*For clarity and legal reasons I am not condoning a workforce strike against the U.S. Government.*

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[PooseMaGoose]

Everyone would lose their security clearance and be terminated - at the very least. The organizers would probably face jail time and hefty fines. Maybe, conveniently, call you a domestic terrorist.

 

[32andBelow]

Y’all are talking about this while Mike Whitaker is giving the keynote at CFS lol.

 

[Raise when?]

Y’all are talking about this while Mike Whitaker is giving the keynote at CFS lol.

NOT MY ADMINISTRATOR

 

[RalphBeast]

I don't think you're wrong, but didn't the military do a lot more enroute ATC in the 80s? I could see them taking over terminal facilities (theoretically), but there's no way they have the capabilities or skill to replace the thousands of enroute controllers nowadays.

I knew someone who was in one of the first OTS batches right after the strike.

The situation was much "easier" - there were far fewer flight ops, fewer sectors/areas to learn, managers at the time were semi-competent and could train replacements, and there were enough military controllers to fill the gaps.

Even then, smaller facilities were temporarily shuttered, capacity was reduced bigtime, sectors were combined and greatly simplified, and spacing requirements were basically quadrupled. Took probably 2-3 years to get to around 80% capacity.

I remember my buddy telling me that when showed up to his Z, there was no backlog and he would be trained around the clock - checked out in record time. Right after he certified, he would train non-stop until the early 1990s when he left for another facility.

 

[32andBelow]

I knew someone who was in one of the first OTS batches right after the strike.

The situation was much "easier" - there were far fewer flight ops, fewer sectors/areas to learn, managers at the time were semi-competent and could train replacements, and there were enough military controllers to fill the gaps.

Even then, smaller facilities were temporarily shuttered, capacity was reduced bigtime, sectors were combined and greatly simplified, and spacing requirements were basically quadrupled. Took probably 2-3 years to get to around 80% capacity.

I remember my buddy telling me that when showed up to his Z, there was no backlog and he would be trained around the clock - checked out in record time. Right after he certified, he would train non-stop until the early 1990s when he left for another facility.

I heard they used to let certified d sides train new d sides and r sides would train d sides while they were working 🤣

 

[Gauff]

PATCO didnt think Reagan would fire us all. I don't think there was a big call for privatization back in 81 but there has been recently. You think there wouldn't be an epic smear campaign about us? Look in the news recently and see all the errors ATC has caused be it runway crossings, take off clearances, etc etc.

I can see the news now. Controllers only work 3 to 4 hours of an 8 hour shift. Controllers caught leaving early at hundreds of air traffic control facilities. Controllers get minimal to no punishment due to being federal employees, impossible to fire bad employees. There is literally a controller working right now that got people killed because they were on a personal phone call rather than doing their job. That's outrageous to me.

Depending on the president, if we went on strike we would be privatized immediately. There are so many contract tower, retired, and military controllers that would fill in our ranks in a heartbeat. They fired us all once and they would likely do it again.

They can't take the economic hit to fire us all like they did before. Aviation makes up way too much of the gdp now compared to back then. Plus there aren't nearly enough military or contract controllers to replace everyone and even if there was it would still grind everything to a halt because it would take them years to get up to speed with no one to train them.

Spot on with the smear campaign and we'd look bad af

 

[+TSRA]

Thanks everyone for participating. Again, just trying to determine how frustrated folks were with our current work environment. Surprisingly, the difference between "yes" and "no" is small (the FAA would call that win). I thought it was going lean more towards "yes" given how many grievances people seem to have. I guess this also explains why there isn't much push towards change at the Union level.

Admins, feel free to lock thread if you feel its run its course.

 

[Phillytroll69]

Thanks everyone for participating. Again, just trying to determine how frustrated folks were with our current work environment. Surprisingly, the difference between "yes" and "no" is small (the FAA would call that win). I thought it was going lean more towards "yes" given how many grievances people seem to have. I guess this also explains why there isn't much push towards change at the Union level.

Admins, feel free to lock thread if you feel its run its course.

We haven't even gotten to the teamsters bit endorsing kamala after she was the tiebreaker on their pension or covid vaccines this thread is far from over.

But it's the same as all the other threads this job (stress, shift work, moving etc) used to be a single income median home and car. It's not. 20% of people voted for people with zero experience...I feel like that is a disproportionate number on this site...ie most of that 20% is on here.

I would watch the documentary on the patco strike to find out how stupid the controllers were...they got almost everything they asked for...then asked for more to flex harder.

I don't ever think I've seen natca ask for anything. Like we go in front of congress and say faa bad hurr durr collaboration but I've never once heard pay or anything extra unique to us vs other civil servants.

The conditions and pay aren't worth striking over because the new applicants and new hires aren't even working their dream job this is some Facebook ad to potentially a secure job, not the dream job to a decent car and home as you move up levels...you can't even move anymore.

Again, not great, but nobody is ready to strike in Solidarity for the handful of stuck controllers.

Id probably just leave the union and get an extra 1.5,% raise that way before I strike.

 

[Sassyquatch]

The situation was much "easier" - there were far fewer flight ops, fewer sectors/areas to learn, managers at the time were semi-competent and could train replacements, and there were enough military controllers to fill the gaps.

Even then, smaller facilities were temporarily shuttered, capacity was reduced bigtime, sectors were combined and greatly simplified, and spacing requirements were basically quadrupled. Took probably 2-3 years to get to around 80% capacity.

And, how big was the 7110.65 40 years ago? One of the retired controllers here who works for SIAC said it was MAYBE 1/2" thick when he started. My facility just bought a new 6" binder for our 7110.65.... I didn't even know they made 6" binders.

A strike would never happen. But I have mentioned it before (then shunned that I even said anything at all related to it) and I personally think that they could never replace us like they did for the last one. There are SO many more rules and regulations, SOP, LOAs that we need to know and the Air Force base near my facility can barely apply wake turbulence correctly.

We have very little bargaining power.

 

[RalphBeast]

And, how big was the 7110.65 40 years ago? One of the retired controllers here who works for SIAC said it was MAYBE 1/2" thick when he started. My facility just bought a new 6" binder for our 7110.65.... I didn't even know they made 6" binders.

A strike would never happen. But I have mentioned it before (then shunned that I even said anything at all related to it) and I personally think that they could never replace us like they did for the last one. There are SO many more rules and regulations, SOP, LOAs that we need to know and the Air Force base near my facility can barely apply wake turbulence correctly.

We have very little bargaining power.

I agree with you. Even when the it was far easier to replace controllers in the early 1980s, it still wasn't easy and caused a massive headache for a few years.

Our area, the busiest and most complex at my level 12 Z, has been barely keeping it's head above water for a long time, and that's with lots of OT and no striking controllers. You could only imagine what would happen if a strike occured.

 

[Gauff]

Thanks everyone for participating. Again, just trying to determine how frustrated folks were with our current work environment. Surprisingly, the difference between "yes" and "no" is small (the FAA would call that win). I thought it was going lean more towards "yes" given how many grievances people seem to have. I guess this also explains why there isn't much push towards change at the Union level.

Admins, feel free to lock thread if you feel its run its course.

I think it'd be interesting to see results if you phrased the question a different way, such as:

If the FAA offers us zero improvements with pay to our current contract, and the union called a strike would you go on strike?

I feel like that could give a more accurate feel for where people are at. More so than just a broad question about going on strike since people could interpret it differently. Still an interesting poll.

 

[Mike Kilo]

Didn’t I hear that scabs that stayed and trained the new workforce got a golden ticket after a couple years?

 

[32andBelow]

Didn’t I hear that scabs that stayed and trained the new workforce got a golden ticket after a couple years?

I heard that people higher in the union did RDO swap type of stuff so they didn’t get fired. Not sure if that’s cap or not.

 

[Unable is a full sentence]

Yeah just 20 controllers from specific facilities going to the doctor, and no one taking the overtime would accomplish the same results.

A lot of action can be attained without any illegal work actions...in Minecraft.

 

[Phillytroll69]

If the FAA offers us zero improvements with pay to our current contract, and the union called a strike would you go on strike?

Herein lies the problem....this is the best contract the union has ever gotten. Massive downsides to the 1.6%, can't earn unlimited credit like sups, but this is the celebration contract.

If we can't even negotiate to implement better rest rules BEFORE the FAA says you're failing at separation we are IMPOSING new rest rules.

I remember the initial emails about being blindsided and how they can't just implement these things etc. Now the members are drinking beer listening to a sleep panel at cfs.

The union calling for a strike? The union is the lube to the decisions. And here's a chance to prove me wrong-
Show me benefits other federal employees don't get.
Show me rules the agency wanted to implement that we prevented

 

[accskp]

I wonder what would happen if every single controller came down with a sniffle for a day or two.

Another problem we found in 81. You'll never get every controller to do anything. PATCO required and got 80% of the bargaining unit to vote to go out on strike. They got the 80% vote, then when threatened with firing about 20% went back to work, leaving the others hanging. My point is, current ATC workforce is pretty much stuck with whatever the FAA decides it is willing to grant. If they refuse to do anything what is NATCA going to do. Sue? So what? If they lose the suit they have to negotiate, if NATCA loses the suit they don't have to do anything? NATCA has no leverage. There is no downside for the FAA. Now if you can get the public on your side that could change things but when they publish how much a center controller makes, that pretty much goes out the window. Also, this could be a job action which is the same thing as a strike.

A lot of action can be attained without any illegal work actions...in Minecraft.

Be careful! That could be considered a job action.

Yeah just 20 controllers from specific facilities going to the doctor, and no one taking the overtime would accomplish the same results.

Job action! Illegal.

 

[GulfCharlie]

Another problem we found in 81. You'll never get every controller to do anything. PATCO required and got 80% of the bargaining unit to vote to go out on strike. They got the 80% vote, then when threatened with firing about 20% went back to work, leaving the others hanging. My point is, current ATC workforce is pretty much stuck with whatever the FAA decides it is willing to grant. If they refuse to do anything what is NATCA going to do. Sue? So what? If they lose the suit they have to negotiate, if NATCA loses the suit they don't have to do anything? NATCA has no leverage. There is no downside for the FAA. Now if you can get the public on your side that could change things but when they publish how much a center controller makes, that pretty much goes out the window. Also, this could be a job action which is the same thing as a strike.

Astute observation. Public perception is everything but most "normal" people do not understand the stressors or what the job even entails. You are right though, once glance at the salary and they lose all sympathy with those "over worked" who just "sit in chairs all day."