CRWG

[ChuckNovember]

Swaps are the worst possible thing for staffing. How can you sell that to the FAA? "Let's turn 2 qualified bodies, into 2 effectively useless trainees for ~1-2 years?"

If it's a tower>tower, Z>Z etc it is not at all a two year process; thats disingenuous. Most local training orders have separate hours on position for CPC-IT

 

[N737ER]

If it's a tower>tower, Z>Z etc it is not at all a two year process; thats disingenuous. Most local training orders have separate hours on position for CPC-IT

Definitely. In the local training order my Z has three "levels" of training: 1) Developmental. 2) Terminal CPC. 3) EnRoute CPC.

A developmental from OKC is allotted ~140hr on each radar (plus 20% extra on their first two) versus an Enroute CPC transfer who is only allotted ~85hrs on each R. A terminal transfer is treated as a OKC grad for class purposes, but is given an hours target between the OKC developmental and the enroune transfer, in our case ~100hrs. As far as training time it seems in my Z a "normal" En-Route transfer typically certs within 6-12mos.

 

[ZO]

Definitely. In the local training order my Z has three "levels" of training: 1) Developmental. 2) Terminal CPC. 3) EnRoute CPC.

A developmental from OKC is allotted ~140hr on each radar (plus 20% extra on their first two) versus an Enroute CPC transfer who is only allotted ~85hrs on each R. A terminal transfer is treated as a OKC grad for class purposes, but is given an hours target between the OKC developmental and the enroune transfer, in our case ~100hrs. As far as training time it seems in my Z a "normal" En-Route transfer typically certs within 6-12mos.

But still. In the FAAs eyes. In 6-12 months you are right where you started. Net neutral. At least with NCEPT, a needing facility gains from an overweight facility, balancing staffing.

With a swap you hurt 2 facilities in the short term, and long term you are neutral.

There is absolutely zero benefit from a staffing perspective, which is all that matters in negotiations.

 

[TermLimits]

There definitely are. But the problem is that how many applicants, just want their foot in the door? How many would take a spot anywhere just to submit an ERR a day after certification? I would have 100% done that if I missed out on a few prior/open bids.

You can't sift through every applicant and ensure they will stay unless they sign a 10 year contract or whatever. And without that, it brings you right back to the issue at hand.

You’re fixated on ERRs. Most people don’t know what that is until they join the agency. Getting sent somewhere you don’t want to live makes you look for ways out. Being sent to the place you applied to is different.

Yes some will eventually try to end up at the higher level facilities once they learn more about the agency. But it wouldn’t be an epidemic of people joining and demanding an instant transfer.

 

[32andBelow]

But still. In the FAAs eyes. In 6-12 months you are right where you started. Net neutral. At least with NCEPT, a needing facility gains from an overweight facility, balancing staffing.

With a swap you hurt 2 facilities in the short term, and long term you are neutral.

There is absolutely zero benefit from a staffing perspective, which is all that matters in negotiations.

They hardly will even approve them if both places have good staffing.

 

[ZO]

You’re fixated on ERRs. Most people don’t know what that is until they join the agency. Getting sent somewhere you don’t want to live makes you look for ways out. Being sent to the place you applied to is different.

Yes some will eventually try to end up at the higher level facilities once they learn more about the agency. But it wouldn’t be an epidemic of people joining and demanding an instant transfer.

Idk bro that's just wishful thinking. And again, how could you possibly sell that to the FAA. "hey they won't transfer because they won't know about the transfer process until after a while"

 

[ZO]

They hardly will even approve them if both places have good staffing.

Unfortunately rightfully so. It just doesn't make sense from an FAAs perspective. Would love to see swaps happening all the time, but logistically it's terrible.

 

[32andBelow]

Unfortunately rightfully so. It just doesn't make sense from an FAAs perspective. Would love to see swaps happening all the time, but logistically it's terrible.

Do you think park rangers and shit don’t get to move around?

 

[ZO]

Do you think park rangers and shit don’t get to move around?

Probably. But the park rangers aren't facing a staffing crisis causing delays, excessive OT and making national news. Then their union doesn't come to the park ranger managers asking to turn 2 certified bodies into 2 useless bodies for at least a year in the face of this staffing crisis all while asking for more staffing/hires simultaneously.

 

[32andBelow]

Probably. But the park rangers aren't facing a staffing crisis causing delays, excessive OT and making national news. Then their union doesn't come to the park ranger managers asking to turn 2 certified bodies into 2 useless bodies for at least a year in the face of this staffing crisis all while asking for more staffing/hires simultaneously.

But letting 2 guys switch from a well staff facility doesn’t effect anything negatively. Having people quit cus they can never move does tho

 

[TermLimits]

Idk bro that's just wishful thinking. And again, how could you possibly sell that to the FAA. "hey they won't transfer because they won't know about the transfer process until after a while"

The point is that someone who lives locally and wants to make good money for the area will most likely apply to the job.

Potentially lowering the number of people who withdraw or quit the academy when the list shows only facilities thousands of miles from home.

Any reduction in the number of people looking to transfer is a good thing. If a facility with 15 people has 3 who want to transfer but the rest are comfortable, it’s better than throwing randoms at it hoping some decide this new place is their forever home.

 

[ZO]

But letting 2 guys switch from a well staff facility doesn’t effect anything negatively. Having people quit cus they can never move does tho

They do allow that to happen, but they prioritize an overstaffed facility to fill a slot in a less staffed one, which helps the overall staffing. Which is why swaps are rare.

The point is that someone who lives locally and wants to make good money for the area will most likely apply to the job.

Potentially lowering the number of people who withdraw or quit the academy when the list shows only facilities thousands of miles from home.

Any reduction in the number of people looking to transfer is a good thing. If a facility with 15 people has 3 who want to transfer but the rest are comfortable, it’s better than throwing randoms at it hoping some decide this new place is their forever home.

I don't have the numbers of academy withdrawals for that reason alone. But I'd imagine that's pretty rare. They know what they are getting into before starting.

Totally agree with your last point. But it's impossible to project. Hard to staff places are hard to staff for a reason, and without contracts, I'd say someone local is negligibly less likely to not have a transfer request in than someone who isn't local.

 

[DankVectorz]

But it's completely different because those people chose to increase their chances and go for the low hanging fruit. They picked the states in their application and getting stuck is entirely on them.

How is that different than everyone who checked the box “I am willing to work anywhere in the United States” when they applied? Which every one of us did on our applications.

 

[FeastOnTheEast]

Halfway? Try nearly 3000 miles bud

I’ve been 7000 miles away on deployment, 4000 miles away FCT, and nearly 3000 miles away FAA. I’ll take FAA over Military and FCT… kinda shows how ungrateful some people here are because they dealt with less hardships or none at all. Being stuck at 1 FAA Facility for a few years is better than constantly being thrown around the world every 3 years, or being deployed. I’ve seen some people get to their first facility in the FAA and within 2 months into training they want to leave. How about the FAA hires more mentally resilient candidates rather than being focused on recruiting Gamers (their “level up” campaign) who rage quit and have no grit.

 

[32andBelow]

I’ve been 7000 miles away on deployment, 4000 miles away FCT, and nearly 3000 miles away FAA. I’ll take FAA over Military and FCT… kinda shows how ungrateful some people here are because they dealt with less hardships or none at all. Being stuck at 1 FAA Facility for a few years is better than constantly being thrown around the world every 3 years, or being deployed. I’ve seen some people get to their first facility in the FAA and within 2 months into training they want to leave. How about the FAA hires more mentally resilient candidates rather than being focused on recruiting Gamers (their “level up” campaign) who rage quit and have no grit.

This isn’t the military. Just post the openings and let people apply to them. Use Cip and sign on bonuses for hard to staff places. Actually get out in the community and advertise the job

 

[Phillytroll69]

Swaps are the worst possible thing for staffing. How can you sell that to the FAA? "Let's turn 2 qualified bodies, into 2 effectively useless trainees for ~1-2 years?"

Ok, i can see that point of view.
But what about useless bodies that can't swap-people that have a sides or just ground and get stuck

 

[Mr.Tickles]

I’ve been 7000 miles away on deployment, 4000 miles away FCT, and nearly 3000 miles away FAA. I’ll take FAA over Military and FCT… kinda shows how ungrateful some people here are because they dealt with less hardships or none at all. Being stuck at 1 FAA Facility for a few years is better than constantly being thrown around the world every 3 years, or being deployed. I’ve seen some people get to their first facility in the FAA and within 2 months into training they want to leave. How about the FAA hires more mentally resilient candidates rather than being focused on recruiting Gamers (their “level up” campaign) who rage quit and have no grit.

That’s a poor comparison since in the military there’s a light at the end of the tunnel and ways to get what you want.

Hate life at your duty station? Well guess what in three years you’re basically guaranteed a new one and if the timings right you might even be able to pick it.

You join the military knowing your life will always be unstable and forever changing. It’s expected. What’s not expected when joining the FAA is that the agency has this perpetual staffing issue which means you might be stuck at your first facility with no way out and no light at the end of the tunnel.

 

[ZO]

That’s a poor comparison since in the military there’s a light at the end of the tunnel and ways to get what you want.

Hate life at your duty station? Well guess what in three years you’re basically guaranteed a new one and if the timings right you might even be able to pick it.

You join the military knowing your life will always be unstable and forever changing. It’s expected. What’s not expected when joining the FAA is that the agency has this perpetual staffing issue which means you might be stuck at your first facility with no way out and no light at the end of the tunnel.

If you didn't know that was a potential outcome before joining the FAA, you did extremely poor and minimal research before choosing a career path. As well as signing a paper that says you're willing to work anywhere the FAA needs you.

 

[Mr.Tickles]

If you didn't know that was a potential outcome before joining the FAA, you did extremely poor and minimal research before choosing a career path. As well as signing a paper that says you're willing to work anywhere the FAA needs you.

Congrats on being at the facility you want to be at for the foreseeable future.

 

[Somenewguy]

If you didn't know that was a potential outcome before joining the FAA, you did extremely poor and minimal research before choosing a career path. As well as signing a paper that says you're willing to work anywhere the FAA needs you.

You can say it's a lack of research but really it's just that most people don't draw the short straw and get sent to fairbanks alaska. Even though everyone checks the same box, some get lucky and some don't. It would be nice to come up with a system where eventually people can better their station. That idea goes doubly for employees who go above and beyond to contribute to a facility in a job where there's not many rewards for doing well vs scraping by.