CRWG

[N737ER]

50000 people apply to one bid and yall muhfuckas think you have the leverage to negotiate a hiring process that favors the applicant more?

That many people (though I recall the early numbers being 30k) apply to a single bid each year and for some reason people think we have the leverage to negogiate anything.

With that many people applying they could replace us 4x over each year. With that number applying they could keep replacing us until they reach a level where the perks are *just enough* to get someone to come in the door.

 

[FeastOnTheEast]

Yea maybe not on here because this site is mostly junior controllers but in person most of the "you agreed to go anywhere" comments are from people who did not have to "agree to go anywhere" in my experience.

I did in fact agree to go anywhere, and did so. I’m ok being in a small town isolated from the world, as I’ve done so prior to FAA. Assuming makes an ass out of you and me.

 

[ChuckNovember]

I did in fact agree to go anywhere, and did so. I’m ok being in a small town isolated from the world, as I’ve done so prior to FAA. Assuming makes an ass out of you and me.

Reading comprehension not your strong suit? I said it wouldn’t be the case on this site. Congrats on enjoying bumfuck.

 

[CaptainObvious]

That many people (though I recall the early numbers being 30k) apply to a single bid each year and for some reason people think we have the leverage to negogiate anything.

With that many people applying they could replace us 4x over each year. With that number applying they could keep replacing us until they reach a level where the perks are *just enough* to get someone to come in the door.

I hate this argument. It’s just excusing the agency for anything that they do and enables shitty working conditions

 

[ChuckNovember]

That many people (though I recall the early numbers being 30k) apply to a single bid each year and for some reason people think we have the leverage to negogiate anything.

With that many people applying they could replace us 4x over each year. With that number applying they could keep replacing us until they reach a level where the perks are *just enough* to get someone to come in the door.

By this “logic” we should stop collectively bargaining since 50,000 people filled out an application?

Do airlines bring up how many people took intro flights in 172s when bargaining with their pilots? Do software developers have their pay go down every time some watched an intro to python video on YouTube?

 

[32andBelow]

50000 people apply to one bid and yall muhfuckas think you have the leverage to negotiate a hiring process that favors the applicant more?

And at the end of the day less than 1000 pass the academy in a year. Even less make it through their facility

 

[AnyTrafficPleaseAdvise]

50000 people apply to one bid and yall muhfuckas think you have the leverage to negotiate a hiring process that favors the applicant more?

Yeah, but how many actually make it to the academy? 1,500? And of those how many make it out of OKC? 1000? And of those how many CPC at their facility? 750? By the time all ~750 certify in 3-5 years 1,000 will have retired

 

[N737ER]

Yeah, but how many actually make it to the academy?

Going down this road, we can estimate how many make it to OKC based on class sizes and frequency. But I am curious, out of the many thousands who apply, how many are actually “elligible” to go to the academy?

 

[RomeoTangoRT]

Sift through any of the experienced bid threads and count how many *just on this forum* turn down facilities they’re assigned. No academy, straight to facility for staffing/training, but they’re 25 with a CTO and 10 years to get into the agency. Tell me exactly what motivation they (I) have for accepting a low level, middle of bumfuck facility when I can apply 15 more times and eventually get something desirable all while working in a coastal Florida town making 6 figures in the meantime.

 

[Papacharlie327]

That many people (though I recall the early numbers being 30k) apply to a single bid each year and for some reason people think we have the leverage to negogiate anything.

With that many people applying they could replace us 4x over each year. With that number applying they could keep replacing us until they reach a level where the perks are *just enough* to get someone to come in the door.

You can tout these numbers all you want, but 50,000 applicants that know nothing about aviation don’t mean we are replaceable. With 50% of the applicants washing out, if anything, that shows how important competent controllers are to this agency, and how badly they are needed. I’m training a guy right now that thinks he’s entitled to the job. Already talks about transferring, and can’t even tell me what a VOR is. It’s embarrassing that I know someone trying to get to my Z with radar experience and they send me the sensitive cashier from Whole Foods who probably isn’t going to make it.

 

[N737ER]

You can tout these numbers all you want, but 50,000 applicants that know nothing about aviation don’t mean we are replaceable. With 50% of the applicants washing out, if anything, that shows how important competent controllers are to this agency, and how badly they are needed. I’m training a guy right now that thinks he’s entitled to the job. Already talks about transferring, and can’t even tell me what a VOR is. It’s embarrassing that I know someone trying to get to my Z with radar experience and they send me the sensitive cashier from Whole Foods who probably isn’t going to make it.

I agree that we need knowledgable and competent controllers. But do you think the FAA cares if an applicant has aviation knowledge/experience? Not to say it one way or the other: I honestly don’t know. I don’t know what qualities they’re looking for.

My area has a CPC-IT who boasts about his aviation knowledge, but is by far the worst controller that I’ve seen in person. On the flip side we have trainees with no aviation knowledge that take the training process seriously, and try to learn every day. Knowledge =/= Competence. Can it help, certainly yes, but its not the end-all-be-all. It’s easier to train when you don’t have to explain every “Aviation 101” thing to them.

I do feel for you, when people say they don’t “need” this job (like said CPC-IT) whats the motivation to train?

 

[Bandit117]

I am not arguing that it is a good idea in theory. But simply doesn't work in practice unfortunately. I would love if that system works because it does make sense. People just seem to think it is the answer to the problem, and it just isn't.

Obviously it can be improved, there should be some wiggle room. But the logistics of placing people that way as a rule is just too much and doesn't help the NAS. Especially with how slow the FAA operates.

Only way in my mind that it would be possible is if they instituted contracts for facility bids. But that is a whole different onion to peel.

I agree that it could be done, but not with the lazy and stupid idiots we have in HR now. They are placing maybe 3000 people this year at most? A lone HR rep would have to figure out how to place only 12 people a day get to over 3000 before the end of the year. They could spend 30 mins on each placement and still take 2 hour lunches.. That accounts for weekends etc. with obviously more than one person that would be a cake walk.

They could do it. They have the authority to do so. There’s any number of ways they could place people that would be better than how it is now. They choose not to do it, because the system we have works for the HR bureaucracy that supports the FAA. They don’t care that is doesn’t work for for actual operational FAA or that it hinders overall mission of the FAA itself.

Ask any ncept rep and they will tell you that HR is the biggest hindrance to progress.

 

[Bandit117]

They do allow that to happen, but they prioritize an overstaffed facility to fill a slot in a less staffed one, which helps the overall staffing. Which is why swaps are rare.


I don't have the numbers of academy withdrawals for that reason alone. But I'd imagine that's pretty rare. They know what they are getting into before starting.

Totally agree with your last point. But it's impossible to project. Hard to staff places are hard to staff for a reason, and without contracts, I'd say someone local is negligibly less likely to not have a transfer request in than someone who isn't local.

I saw at least one person pass the academy and resign because they couldn’t go to Fairbanks. Their spouse had a job that was very flexible, but the spouses job said you have to live CONUS, OCONUS isn’t possible. The non faa spouse made 6 figures, for the non faa spouse to force quit that job so the other one could make 40k as a dev and then 85k as a cpc years later, AND Move from FL to AK all on their own dime didn’t make sense.

Literally, they could have bent a rule and sent that someone to any other less desirable facility in the NAS and it would have been fine, but they paid however-the-fuck-much money to recruit, hire, and train through the entire academy to lose them on graduation day. Meanwhile, some places get bitched at for using an hour and a half of OT holdover when 1 hr 20 mins would have made it work.

It’s financially irresponsible to let an academy grad go because they can’t go OCONUS. There’s a spot, they just don’t want to do the work to find it.

 

[Papacharlie327]

I agree that we need knowledgable and competent controllers. But do you think the FAA cares if an applicant has aviation knowledge/experience? Not to say it one way or the other: I honestly don’t know. I don’t know what qualities they’re looking for.

My area has a CPC-IT who boasts about his aviation knowledge, but is by far the worst controller that I’ve seen in person. On the flip side we have trainees with no aviation knowledge that take the training process seriously, and try to learn every day. Knowledge =/= Competence. Can it help, certainly yes, but its not the end-all-be-all. It’s easier to train when you don’t have to explain every “Aviation 101” thing to them.

I do feel for you, when people say they don’t “need” this job (like said CPC-IT) whats the motivation to train?

My point is if the faa is hiring off the street and they keep washing out and not keeping up with the pace of retirees then how is their method effective. Because if only 700 out of 1500 succeed at a facility and 1,000 plus are retiring every year then we can all agree that the formula isn’t working. Furthermore, at what point does the NAS become dangerous?

 

[32andBelow]

My point is if the faa is hiring off the street and they keep washing out and not keeping up with the pace of retirees then how is their method effective. Because if only 700 out of 1500 succeed at a facility and 1,000 plus are retiring every year then we can all agree that the formula isn’t working. Furthermore, at what point does the NAS become dangerous?

It won’t become dangerous they’ll just be insane ground delays everywhere

 

[ChuckNovember]

I saw at least one person pass the academy and resign because they couldn’t go to Fairbanks. Their spouse had a job that was very flexible, but the spouses job said you have to live CONUS, OCONUS isn’t possible. The spouse made 6 figures, to ditch that job for the other one to make 40k as a dev and then 85k as a cpc years later, AND Move from FL to AK all on their own dime didn’t make sense.

Literally, they could have bent a rule and sent that someone to any other less desirable facility in the NAS and it would have been fine, but they paid however-the-fuck-much money to recruit, hire, and train through the entire academy to lose them on graduation day. Meanwhile, some places get bitched at for using an hour and a half of OT holdover when 1 hr 20 mins would have made it work.

It’s financially irresponsible to let an academy grad go because they can’t go OCONUS. There’s a spot, they just don’t want to do the work to find it.

And even though this is anecdotal there are too many stories just like this to ignore.

 

[32andBelow]

And even though this is anecdotal there are too many stories just like this to ignore.

Besides the top couple centers is absurd they don’t even attempt to place people. Seen a girl denied Oakland when I was there

 

[Bandit117]

My point is if the faa is hiring off the street and they keep washing out and not keeping up with the pace of retirees then how is their method effective. Because if only 700 out of 1500 succeed at a facility and 1,000 plus are retiring every year then we can all agree that the formula isn’t working. Furthermore, at what point does the NAS become dangerous?

When your ability for career progression you better believe they will certify. It won’t be safe, they won’t be good, but they will be certified jo matter how bad they are because the people stuck there can’t leave otherwise.

 

[kombucha23]

Ngl, I’d rather be stuck somewhere for longer to ensure the safety of the flying public. There’s some dumb mf’ers who get to train that will for sure kill someone someday.

 

[HighFrequency]

I saw at least one person pass the academy and resign because they couldn’t go to Fairbanks. Their spouse had a job that was very flexible, but the spouses job said you have to live CONUS, OCONUS isn’t possible. The non faa spouse made 6 figures, for the non faa spouse to force quit that job so the other one could make 40k as a dev and then 85k as a cpc years later, AND Move from FL to AK all on their own dime didn’t make sense.

Literally, they could have bent a rule and sent that someone to any other less desirable facility in the NAS and it would have been fine, but they paid however-the-fuck-much money to recruit, hire, and train through the entire academy to lose them on graduation day. Meanwhile, some places get bitched at for using an hour and a half of OT holdover when 1 hr 20 mins would have made it work.

It’s financially irresponsible to let an academy grad go because they can’t go OCONUS. There’s a spot, they just don’t want to do the work to find it.

I agree this is dumb, but I'm laughing at the spouse's employer (and a lot of employers including the Feds) calling Alaska OCONUS.

It's a misuse of the definition, since Alaska is literally part of the continental US. It's non-contiguous (doesn't share a border with the lower forty eight), but still part of North America.

ANYWAYYYYY...