2024 NATCA President Election

[Horny4.65]

Are we back to shitposting?

 

[Fat Porrey]

Barely maintaining currency is not enough. If you have 2x or 3x times the currency you should get that 10%. Stop rewarding thr scammers who aren't actually working traffic. If you want to take an A114 job, that's fine but there will be financial consequences.

It could actually be a real "controller incentive pay"

CIP as we currently know it needs to be gutted and started fresh. Too many well staffed (relatively) facilities in desirable localities getting it, while short staffed places in shitholes are told to pound sand.

I think we need to draw a line in the sand to define the success of the #razewen movement. A specific minimum number which would be acceptable that NATCA should work for.

For me that would be a 18% raise in base pay between now, and after we get the next June raise. We are “guaranteed” about 5.2% in January and 1.6% in June. So NATCA needs to find a way to get us the extra 10% raise between now and then.

Or if NATCA can produce the extra 10% though premium pays which are basically permanent and guaranteed like the 10% monthly bonus if you keep your currency idea, while it would not help for high 3 calculations I would accept that too.

Even if all that played out, it would still only draw us even with buying power of 2019, as while the 5.2% raise in January might match the quoted inflation of 5% this year, the two prior years inflation was about 8% and 9% and we got 3% and 4% January raises.

This is nothing like the 30% increase the airlines, UWA and TSA got or will get, but it would at least be a reset to pre-COVID buying power and would not come off of too much of an ask to any rational person.

If NATCA can’t do that, fuck Santa, Mick, and every other regional level incumbent, I’ll never vote for another one again and everyone should drop out the first January they are retirement eligible.

I think you’re low, but I applaud the idea of drawing a baseline.

I’d say 20% excluding what’s coming. So if there’s 6.8% between now and June, they need to make up an extra 18.2% somehow in either premium pay, or raises. 1.5x OT is laughable at this point, it should start at 2x and go up from there. Working 1 shift or 50 shifts of OT per year should not pay at the same rate.

Sadly, all these ideas are great and give momentum and solidarity to the RAZE WEN MVMNT, but the powers that be appear powerless, and I have less hope that they care or will try to figure out RAZE HAU or pursue us a RAZE NAU.

Our brother Raise when? Is right when the most plausible outcome is we all just retire the day we’re eligible and look back on a regretful career choice.

If I had to put odds on it I’d say we’re at less then a 20% chance of getting anything more than the obligatory Jan and June raises over the next few years.

I pity the 20somes getting hired these days who naively think they want to stick around for the next 25 years of this circus as it circles the drain.

 

[Top5fatcat]

CIP as we currently know it needs to be gutted and started fresh. Too many well staffed (relatively) facilities in desirable localities getting it, while short staffed places in shitholes are told to pound sand.

Ooo Brother now you are getting too close to the sun! Even our dear leader the great and powerful Raise when? refuses to touch or otherwise discuss the sham that is CIP. This is a massive dividing line within the union. For the facilities who get it its shhhhhhh, and those who don't are just pissing into the wind.

 

[Fat Porrey]

Ooo Brother now you are getting too close to the sun! Even our dear leader the great and powerful Raise when? refuses to touch or otherwise discuss the sham that is CIP. This is a massive dividing line within the union. For the facilities who get it its shhhhhhh, and those who don't are just pissing into the wind.

So much for solidarity. CIP shouldn’t be like the PAC where it’s verboten to speak of it.

The concept of CIP isn’t horrible, but it is so horribly broken at this point that it just enables corruption. Does brother Raise when? work at a CiP facility, possibly?

A RAZE WEN MVMNT floats all vessels, from the super yachts of N90 to the dinghies of POU, and everyone in between. Adjusting CIP equitably would fall in line with the core tenets of RAZE WEN.

 

[Top5fatcat]

A RAZE WEN MVMNT floats all vessels, from the super yachts of N90 to the dinghies of POU, and everyone in between. Adjusting CIP equitably would fall in line with the core tenets of RAZE WEN.

CIP is the Bermuda Triangle that ensnares all range of vessels who question the nature of its essence Costa Concordia style. Would that all have the same opportunity to eat from that trough instead of the haves flaunting those Liras like drunken sailors at CFS' Fuel Bar (you're so last summer). I agree must get w the time and convert ALL to the Euro so that even poor little POU can have a living wage and I can remember my trips there to The Chance to see Taking Back Sunday in the best possible light.

RAZE NAU

 

[Squirrel]

Mick Mick Mick Mick Mick YES!

 

[Nothanks]

Someone should lay out a fair and equitable plan for cip to present to them.

I’ll also ask if anyone knows how cip was originally distributed.

 

[FlightOfTheShortGuy]

CIP as we currently know it needs to be gutted and started fresh. Too many well staffed (relatively) facilities in desirable localities getting it, while short staffed places in shitholes are told to pound sand.


I think you’re low, but I applaud the idea of drawing a baseline.

I’d say 20% excluding what’s coming. So if there’s 6.8% between now and June, they need to make up an extra 18.2% somehow in either premium pay, or raises. 1.5x OT is laughable at this point, it should start at 2x and go up from there. Working 1 shift or 50 shifts of OT per year should not pay at the same rate.

Sadly, all these ideas are great and give momentum and solidarity to the RAZE WEN MVMNT, but the powers that be appear powerless, and I have less hope that they care or will try to figure out RAZE HAU or pursue us a RAZE NAU.

Our brother Raise when? Is right when the most plausible outcome is we all just retire the day we’re eligible and look back on a regretful career choice.

If I had to put odds on it I’d say we’re at less then a 20% chance of getting anything more than the obligatory Jan and June raises over the next few years.

I pity the 20somes getting hired these days who naively think they want to stick around for the next 25 years of this circus as it circles the drain.

Can confirm as a 20something that I’m actively looking at other jobs on USAjobs.gov. And I’m actually lucky in the sense that I’m in the area I want to be at. But 6 day work weeks, shitty breaks, shitty management I already feel pretty worn down. If I can find a remote job in another agency and save pay or be kinda close. I’ll absolutely pull the trigger. It absolutely tears me down to see friends and folks I know make money on par with me and yet they work from home and have weekends and holidays off. I don’t want to be a slave to work schedule my whole career. Not. Worth. It.

 

[Squirrel]

Someone should lay out a fair and equitable plan for cip to present to them.

I’ll also ask if anyone knows how cip was originally distributed.

A fair and equitable plan would be to divide the money evenly among all CPC's who maintain currency. Could be paid as an annual lump sum bonus along w the 1.6%.

There was no original fair (IE non-political scam) way it was ever distributed. Ask around. No one will know that answer, because it didn't exist then & doesn't exist.

Mick will fix everything that's broken.

 

[CaptainObvious]

Can confirm as a 20something that I’m actively looking at other jobs on USAjobs.gov. And I’m actually lucky in the sense that I’m in the area I want to be at. But 6 day work weeks, shitty breaks, shitty management I already feel pretty worn down. If I can find a remote job in another agency and save pay or be kinda close. I’ll absolutely pull the trigger. It absolutely tears me down to see friends and folks I know make money on par with me and yet they work from home and have weekends and holidays off. I don’t want to be a slave to work schedule my whole career. Not. Worth. It.

Do many agencies do save pay?

 

[GulfCharlie]

Do many agencies do save pay?

They will match the pay as long as it fits in the band (in my illustrious experience) example:

1) Top of the band is 147, you are paid 162, you will go to the top of the band

2) You make 83k, bottom of the band is 94, you will go to the bottom of the band.

 

[Nothanks]

A fair and equitable plan would be to divide the money evenly among all CPC's who maintain currency. Could be paid as an annual lump sum bonus along w the 1.6%.

There was no original fair (IE non-political scam) way it was ever distributed. Ask around. No one will know that answer, because it didn't exist then & doesn't exist.

Mick will fix everything that's broken.

There is an original, fair way it was created with. I don’t need to ask around. I know. There’s an mou from its inception. It then changed and got messed with a little bit over the years.

 

[Fat Porrey]

A fair and equitable plan would be to divide the money evenly among all CPC's who maintain currency. Could be paid as an annual lump sum bonus along w the 1.6%.

There was no original fair (IE non-political scam) way it was ever distributed. Ask around. No one will know that answer, because it didn't exist then & doesn't exist.

Mick will fix everything that's broken.

There is an original, fair way it was created with. I don’t need to ask around. I know. There’s an mou from its inception. It then changed and got messed with a little bit over the years.

Original and fair…in 2002 CIP cost the agency $35.5million (I do my own research https://www.oig.dot.gov/sites/default/files/av2003059.pdf ) and here we are 21 years later only allocating $30 million to the cause?

Oh, and an MOU? Yeah. It goes into great detail about the evaluative process for identifying the facilities on a routine basis to qualify/disqualify them for CIP eligibility 🙄 https://www.natca.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/SLATE2016CBACIPMOU.pdf

According to the US Govt, with inflation $35.5million in 2002 is $59.9million in 2023….so the CIP pot should be *double* its current value. RAZE WEN?

 

[Nothanks]

Original and fair…in 2002 CIP cost the agency $35.5million (I do my own research https://www.oig.dot.gov/sites/default/files/av2003059.pdf ) and here we are 21 years later only allocating $30 million to the cause?

Oh, and an MOU? Yeah. It goes into great detail about the evaluative process for identifying the facilities on a routine basis to qualify/disqualify them for CIP eligibility 🙄 https://www.natca.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/SLATE2016CBACIPMOU.pdf

According to the US Govt, with inflation $35.5million in 2002 is $59.9million in 2023….so the CIP pot should be *double* its current value. RAZE WEN?

That’s not the original MOU, it’s from 1999 and there was a specific process.

It started with less than 35 million as well.

I’m not arguing it shouldn’t be raised or evaluated.

But I am asking for people to stop bitching, learn the full history and then lay out an actionable plan.

Otherwise it’s just a bitch fest that has no value.

 

[Top5fatcat]

But I am asking for people to stop bitching, learn the full history and then lay out an actionable plan.

No YOU stop bitching, Boots Jr. !

Original and fair…in 2002 CIP cost the agency $35.5million (I do my own research https://www.oig.dot.gov/sites/default/files/av2003059.pdf ) and here we are 21 years later only allocating $30 million to the cause?

Oh, and an MOU? Yeah. It goes into great detail about the evaluative process for identifying the facilities on a routine basis to qualify/disqualify them for CIP eligibility 🙄 https://www.natca.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/SLATE2016CBACIPMOU.pdf

According to the US Govt, with inflation $35.5million in 2002 is $59.9million in 2023….so the CIP pot should be *double* its current value. RAZE WEN?

I have an idea...

If 85% is the threshold for releasing for NCEPT then any facility below 85% should get CIP (as opposed to the politically connected old boys only who get it now). They get 1% for every % they are below the threshold to a max of 15% (which is still below N90 20+). And this should get reviewed and tweaked quarterly. This would also incentivize people to work at these places, and once theyre properly staffed up the agency wouldnt hafta pay shit. A WIN WIN!

Mick let's make this happen!

 

[Fat Porrey]

That’s not the original MOU, it’s from 1999 and there was a specific process.

It started with less than 35 million as well.

I’m not arguing it shouldn’t be raised or evaluated.

But I am asking for people to stop bitching, learn the full history and then lay out an actionable plan.

Otherwise it’s just a bitch fest that has no value.

Your SIMP is showing.

CIP has been around in concept since 1999 (because it was a part of reclass) but the slate book implored the parties to revisit it. Sadly they merely said “yep let’s keep it as is and not piss off anyone by removing it” oh and let’s not forget the PCT shenanigans that went down.

To imply I don’t have a clue and just hold my pitch Fork and partake in the bitch fest is laughable. I would be a founding member of RAZE WEN MVMNT without knowledge of how we got here. Look at the fools on here that assume 1.6% was a number that the contract team found on a dart board? I’ll go pound for pound on pay history all day, you might wanna pack a lunch…

We could have a perfect solution on our hands, brothers and sisters.

I think we’ve found the answer to RAZE HAU?

If we can get congress fo confirm Mr. Whitaker, follow along on his thoughts for what the FAA (specifically, ATO) needs,

Biden’s FAA nominee promises renewed focus on reversing air traffic controller understaffing

There is bipartisan support to quickly address the shortfalls.

www.govexec.com

this line here makes me think he might be willing to lead RAZE WEN MVMNT “making the FAA a place of choice where aviators want to build their careers.”

Get him, Rich and Mick in a room and we’ll soon all be feeling like Jpow on a spring day in 2020

Biden’s FAA nominee promises renewed focus on reversing air traffic controller understaffing

There is bipartisan support to quickly address the shortfalls.

www.govexec.com

I don’t know, did you read that line where he says he supports the building of a second Academy since the current one can only train 1,800 controllers a year and it’s a chock point? Shows he’s not educated on that and if that, then what else?

That would hold water if the FAA had been hiring 1,800 controllers a year and we were still short. But they have not, I think there was only one year in the last 12 where they hired 1,800. If they could have averaged even 1,500 over that span the staffing crisis would be nonexistent.

It’s other factors slowing hiring and screwing staffing, if the FAA could hire 1,800 a year they would have been. So a second academy to up the capacity to 3,000 a year will still only get 1,200 a year or so, with the screwed up hiring and pre-employment process. If they built a second academy you need twice as many recently retired FAA controllers to move there and work as contractors. I don’t think our generation of retiring controllers will be as willing to do that as the numbers of the Regan era retirees did.

It’s the same as the new CRWG numbers. Even if NATCA gets them approved and was facility is allocated an extra 9% of controllers on average, it still don’t fix hiring, placement and training, so it still won’t lead to more actual controllers in position.

What I’m saying, is that staffing as a whole and transfers/placement will simply never get better. So just pay the shit out of us chose few who made it this far and will remain in the career often in a place we don’t want to live or on mandate OT schedules we hate.

#razewen

 

[Nothanks]

Your SIMP is showing.

CIP has been around in concept since 1999 (because it was a part of reclass) but the slate book implored the parties to revisit it. Sadly they merely said “yep let’s keep it as is and not piss off anyone by removing it” oh and let’s not forget the PCT shenanigans that went down.

To imply I don’t have a clue and just hold my pitch Fork and partake in the bitch fest is laughable. I would be a founding member of RAZE WEN MVMNT without knowledge of how we got here. Look at the fools on here that assume 1.6% was a number that the contract team found on a dart board? I’ll go pound for pound on pay history all day, you might wanna pack a lunch…

Explain the original process and how they decided which facilities got cip in 1999 then.

 

[Fat Porrey]

Explain the original process and how they decided which facilities got cip in 1999 then.

Ok Boots.

This is classic what-aboutism. We all agree that CIP is broken and you’re stuck in 1999. Please tell me why you’re happy maintaining CIP as is?

 

[Nothanks]

Ok Boots.

This is classic what-aboutism. We all agree that CIP is broken and you’re stuck in 1999. Please tell me why you’re happy maintaining CIP as is?

I will repeat myself :

Im not saying it shouldn’t be reevaluated and raised .

I do think it needs looked at and the total raised.

You told me to pack a lunch because you knew about the history of our pay. So I packed my lunch and I’m waiting for you to explain the original process in which CIP was distributed amongst facilities.


The answer to CIP and the fair and equitable distribution of it lies in its origins. Please explain them to me mr know it all.

 

[penaltyvectors]

If 85% is the threshold for releasing for NCEPT then any facility below 85% should get CIP (as opposed to the politically connected old boys only who get it now). They get 1% for every % they are below the threshold to a max of 15% (which is still below N90 20+). And this should get reviewed and tweaked quarterly. This would also incentivize people to work at these places, and once theyre properly staffed up the agency wouldnt hafta pay shit. A WIN WIN!

If you thought N90 was washing people out to keep their OT before, imagine how bad it’ll be once every successful trainee meant an immediate 1% pay cut. Overnight the checkout rate across the whole NAS would drop close to zero. It’s a logical idea, but you’d have to tie it to total bodies in the facility, or checkouts plus washouts, or some other way that doesn’t incentivize washing people out.