ManBearPig
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Doesn't work. Can't do a 6hr shift.
Serious Fatigue Memo 5/3/2024
- Thread starter GulfCharlie
- Start date
Just goes to show what we'll be up against: it was a management level person who told me that schedule worked.
Day 1 - 1545-0045 (9hr) NF to cover mid overlap
Day 2 - 1400-2200 (8hr) or 1300-2100
Day 3 - 0800-1600 (8hr) or 0700-1500
Day 4 - 0530-1230 (7hr) NF
Day 5 - 0030-0830 (8hr)
With that edit it starts to get ugly keeping the eves so late into the night, and the mids til 830...if that happened I definitely see some supervisors calling the midders back to work a rotation in the morning before they go home
If they went that route and were worried about a 6hr being assigned to anyone at any time they could stipulate a 6hr shift is only for the shift preceeding a mid
GulfBravoPapa
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I was thinking something similar to this but wasn't sure if it was legal
Day 1 - 1400-0000 (9 hrs)
Day 2 - 1200-2100 (9 hrs)
Day 3 - 0700-1500 (8hrs)
Day 4 - 0530-1130 (6 hrs)
Day 5 - 2330-0730 (8 hrs)
But a schedule like this essentially make shift swaps impossible. 🤷♀️
32andBelow
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The 6hr rule could be changed tho. They’ll have to rewrite all the rules for schedules anyways so there’s no reason NATCA couldn’t negotiate that.
It's important to define what "legal" means.
14 CFR 65.47 is FAA regulation that has to go through a whole comment period and stuff if they want to change it. The wording only applies to control tower operators but I guess it's interpreted to mean 2152s in general? I'm not clear on that point. Anyway, this says that you can't work more than 10-hour shifts nor can you work more than 10 hours in any 24-hour period, unless you have an 8-hour break. No rule on minimum shift length.
Then the 7210.3 2-6-7 is an internal FAA document and they can change it with the stroke of a pen... unless NATCA pushes back and says it's a change in working conditions, which is what happened. This is the 9-and-8-hour rule for time off between shifts which they're changing to a 10-and-12-hour rule. Again, nothing about minimum shift length.
Finally the Slate Book Article 34 defines the basic workweek as 5x8 unless the employee voluntarily agrees to an Alternative Work Schedule. I guess this is what ManBearPig means about "can't do a 6hr shift" because a Flexible Work Schedule is just normal 8-hour shifts but with flex time, and the two types of Compressed Work Schedules are (1) 4-10 and (2) 5/4-9.
So if you wanted to write a schedule with 9-9-8-6-8 or whatever you would have to have NATCA and the FAA negotiate an MOU overriding Article 34. That's certainly doable, and NATCA should explore that if the workforce wants that kind of schedule. You just have to be aware of what it would take to make that legal.
14 CFR 65.47 is FAA regulation that has to go through a whole comment period and stuff if they want to change it. The wording only applies to control tower operators but I guess it's interpreted to mean 2152s in general? I'm not clear on that point. Anyway, this says that you can't work more than 10-hour shifts nor can you work more than 10 hours in any 24-hour period, unless you have an 8-hour break. No rule on minimum shift length.
Then the 7210.3 2-6-7 is an internal FAA document and they can change it with the stroke of a pen... unless NATCA pushes back and says it's a change in working conditions, which is what happened. This is the 9-and-8-hour rule for time off between shifts which they're changing to a 10-and-12-hour rule. Again, nothing about minimum shift length.
Finally the Slate Book Article 34 defines the basic workweek as 5x8 unless the employee voluntarily agrees to an Alternative Work Schedule. I guess this is what ManBearPig means about "can't do a 6hr shift" because a Flexible Work Schedule is just normal 8-hour shifts but with flex time, and the two types of Compressed Work Schedules are (1) 4-10 and (2) 5/4-9.
So if you wanted to write a schedule with 9-9-8-6-8 or whatever you would have to have NATCA and the FAA negotiate an MOU overriding Article 34. That's certainly doable, and NATCA should explore that if the workforce wants that kind of schedule. You just have to be aware of what it would take to make that legal.
bravounite33
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Mine doesn't yet but I have a friend at MIA that says their bidding guys have schedules made up already assuming everything goes through. It's some version of straight shifts is all I know. I told my rep to hit up their rep to see what they came up with.
Exactly. Article 34 is the main culprit and would need a MOU to override the rule that the minimum length for a core shift is only 7hrs. It's doable but not sure the FAA "wants" it as they've been trying to get rid of the rattler schedule for a while and this is a roundabout way of keeping it with just a slight modification.
Stinger
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BWS negotiations are supposed to happen like normal with no change. Only if national levels come out with guidance will facilities renegotiate.
Another complicating factor is controllers have a requirement for a 40 hour week in the CBA, where the rest of the government is an 80 hour pay period.
Another complicating factor is controllers have a requirement for a 40 hour week in the CBA, where the rest of the government is an 80 hour pay period.
ClearanceClarence
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Basically this whole thing was just a political ploy by the administrator to say he “tried to fix fatigue” and nothing is actually ever going to change.
Raise when?
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he sounds like a dumb cunt
ClearanceClarence
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Pretty on par with this administration.
Soul_Controller
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In all fairness, a decent amount of people thought that whining about the schedule was a good idea at his townhall. Working in transportation and being mad about the schedule is like being a cop and complaining about having to arrest people.
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Uhh it's supposed to change next bidding period as the union reviews how to have facilities implement it locally.
It is going to change.
ClearanceClarence
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The schedule absolutely should be changed and advocating for that isn’t unreasonable. It’s been proven time and again that the rattler is the absolute worst work schedule for fatigue and overall health. The issue is you can’t make drastic changes overnight. The administrator wanting to go from 8 hours before a mid to 12 and have it implemented within 90 days is absurd. If they took the time to formulate a plan that could be executed over time, it’d be great. Of course that’s not how the agency operates though.
Did you miss Stinger post above? Bidding is happening with no changes. Nothing is going to happen for at least another year, if ever.
32andBelow
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The union doesn’t know anything . I fully expect the FAA to say these changes are happening.
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He said if there is national guidance that comes out.
Wasn't the last union email saying they were going to talk to the faa?
Somenewguy
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Your facility has enough bodies to fill when people bang out? You're fat staffed bruh
32andBelow
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What guidance do they need? The FAA gave the guidance already.
What are you getting at ?
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