Management wants to kill 4 day AWS.

[Nothanks]

a good portion? Do you know how many people are at level 10+ tower and enroute facilities?

Yea. A good portion

 

[Whiskey Charlie]

When you are 18 and no debt. It’s a pretty good starting point in life.

Half of the people hired end up at Enroute facilities- starting cpc with no OT/dif pay is :
123k(San Juan) - 189k(Oakland). Include premiums and overtime and most center controllers are making close to or over 200k. I’d still suggest young kids that don’t want to get in tons of debt to consider this career

Yes some people end up at low level towers and takes time to move up. Need to work on the pay bands next contract. Still a good job. Or more people would resign

Not many 18 year olds being hired. The equivalent of 3 years full time experience or a bachelors degree isn’t easy to come by at 18. CPC pay at some of those higher level centers barely covers cost of living within a reasonable drive not to mention it takes 2-4+ years to certify at a center where they aren’t making close to CPC pay. Even if they are 18 and working at Oakland center they’re going into debt as they work up to CPC pay.

Oh, you’re probably one of those “live with your parents forever because you can save almost everything to afford life” kind of people. We can’t all be that lucky to get a location we want and have the option to do that anyway. I don’t know why I engage with that mindset as you’re stuck in your ways and never see another perspective.

More people are resigning than historically speaking.

a good portion? Do you know how many people are at level 10+ tower and enroute facilities?

Do you know how many people aren’t?

 

[Wizard]

Do you know how many people aren’t?

It’s a lot less than you think

 

[Spoony90]

Do you know how many people aren’t?

More importantly, the people stuck and can’t get to those facilities

 

[Soul_Controller]

I haven't looked at the numbers in a long time but i belive about half of controllers are en route. Add that to all the big ass tracons and you have most controllers

 

[Whiskey Charlie]

It’s a lot less than you think

Great non-answer answer. Might as well have said a small portion 😂

 

[Wizard]

Great non-answer answer. Might as well have said a small portion 😂

Sounds like you figured it out

 

[Tater_Toad]

Don’t let management pedal the BS that 4x10s create more OT. You have to dumb it down and take it step by step.

Lets say the guideline is 7 bodies for a shift with 3 leave slots taken. Then when creating the BWS you have 10 bodies to cover guideline numbers. Lets say you have 1 4x10 on this schedule creating another RDO. So now you are down to 9 bodies.

Managements classic line is now going to say that we can’t support that 4x10 because we can’t meet guidelines creating an OT.

🚨🚨🚨WRONG🚨🚨🚨

👏THE 👏 ANNUAL 👏 LEAVE👏 IS CAUSING THE OVERTIME. THERE IS A COST ASSOCIATED WITH ANNUAL LEAVE THAT THE AGENCY HAS TO PAY FOR.

DO NOT LET 4x10s BE THE SCAPEGOAT FOR THE FAA TO SAVE FROM THE AGENCY HAVING A COST ASSOCIATED WITH LEAVE/SCAMMER DETAILS/OTHER DUTIES.

IF YOU CAN MEET ABOVE GUIDELINES WHEN THE BWS IS NEGOTIATED YOU CAN SUPPORT A 4x10 LINE.

It only took three pages but finally a useful answer. Now I'll certainly have to work on painting the picture for the region idiots. Framing it somehow as being the cost associated with annual leave is a good point. We only have 1 leave slot per day and only maybe twice a week are we even scheduled fully for the whole day. It's usually 3 controllers in the morning and 3 at night because one person is on leave.

4x10 actually makes keeping the tower open doable here because there's a line of people that can shift their one day off around considerably. 3 days a week there's a possibility to have 4 of us on OT to cover annual.

 

[Ad1234]

It only took three pages but finally a useful answer. Now I'll certainly have to work on painting the picture for the region idiots. Framing it somehow as being the cost associated with annual leave is a good point. We only have 1 leave slot per day and only maybe twice a week are we even scheduled fully for the whole day. It's usually 3 controllers in the morning and 3 at night because one person is on leave.

4x10 actually makes keeping the tower open doable here because there's a line of people that can shift their one day off around considerably. 3 days a week there's a possibility to have 4 of us on OT to cover annual.

While I don’t disagree it needs to be fought, the post does miss a few things. And I know managment will use the argument he describes. But The BWS is negotiated each year. He’s basing it off the fact that it won’t change. If you add a 4/10 line, the BWS is gonna change because yes you’ll have 9, but you’ll have that extra person. So ot won’t exist and leave won’t be the reason for the OT because management won’t be adding people to meet BWS because they will have the 4/10 person there. In your scenario, that’s like saying you’ll have 2 openers, 3 closers, a 10 hour line in the middle and managers would then add a 7th body to meet BWS. That would never happen!!!!!also you negotiate how much leave you can bid on each day. That’s negotiable. Managment is lazy and will deny the 4/10 because it takes work, I get that. But if your rep is involved in leave mou, BWS, ot mou, they should be shown BATS. It’s the program managment uses to justify the schedule they agree to. If they actually build a schedule and 4/10s causes more overtime management will be able to say no thanks.

 

[ABACUS]

While I don’t disagree it needs to be fought, the post does miss a few things. And I know managment will use the argument he describes. But The BWS is negotiated each year. He’s basing it off the fact that it won’t change. If you add a 4/10 line, the BWS is gonna change because yes you’ll have 9, but you’ll have that extra person. So ot won’t exist and leave won’t be the reason for the OT because management won’t be adding people to meet BWS because they will have the 4/10 person there. In your scenario, that’s like saying you’ll have 2 openers, 3 closers, a 10 hour line in the middle and managers would then add a 7th body to meet BWS. That would never happen!!!!!also you negotiate how much leave you can bid on each day. That’s negotiable. Managment is lazy and will deny the 4/10 because it takes work, I get that. But if your rep is involved in leave mou, BWS, ot mou, they should be shown BATS. It’s the program managment uses to justify the schedule they agree to. If they actually build a schedule and 4/10s causes more overtime management will be able to say no thanks.

The day shift has a guideline of 8 CPCs. You have 10 CPCs and 2 leave slots. The leave slots are not your problem. With 1 4x10 you now have 9 CPCs still meeting the negotiated guideline number of 8.

 

[Ad1234]

The day shift has a guideline of 8 CPCs. You have 10 CPCs and 2 leave slots. The leave slots are not your problem. With 1 4x10 you now have 9 CPCs still meeting the negotiated guideline number of 8.

Cmon, the leave slot isn’t your problem? It might be! You now have one less person to fill the 8 guidelines. And only have 7 cpc to schedule, not on leave. It’s important to remeber The guidelines generally determine which shifts qualify as a day shift not just the amount needed. So if that new 10 hour shift is negotiated to be outside of the day shift you have 9 cpc, 2 leave slots, and you’ll need an overtime. Why would the union agree to mandating an overtime for that day shift and only one person getting a 10 hour? Let alone management. People are desperate to avoid 6 day work weeks. Why agree to it, if you don’t have to just so one person gets 10 hour week. Of course if you’re gonna have the ot anyway who cares go ahead and fight to schedule that 10 hour.

 

[Nothanks]

Not many 18 year olds being hired. The equivalent of 3 years full time experience or a bachelors degree isn’t easy to come by at 18. CPC pay at some of those higher level centers barely covers cost of living within a reasonable drive not to mention it takes 2-4+ years to certify at a center where they aren’t making close to CPC pay. Even if they are 18 and working at Oakland center they’re going into debt as they work up to CPC pay.

Oh, you’re probably one of those “live with your parents forever because you can save almost everything to afford life” kind of people. We can’t all be that lucky to get a location we want and have the option to do that anyway. I don’t know why I engage with that mindset as you’re stuck in your ways and never see another perspective.

More people are resigning than historically speaking.

1% of the workforce or 136 people resigned,removed,died in 2023

 

[ATC Zero]

1% of the workforce or 136 people resigned,removed,died in 2023

That is pretty significant when you look at the actual number coming out of OKC and then factor in wash rates on those numbers and the career is not making the gains needed to prevent things from getting worse than they currently are.

 

[RalphBeast]

That is pretty significant when you look at the actual number coming out of OKC and then factor in wash rates on those numbers and the career is not making the gains needed to prevent things from getting worse than they currently are.

1% is hilariously low. As one example, approximately 8% of schoolteachers leave the profession each year.

The problem is once you get far enough in this career, it is nearly impossible to leave and make similar total compensation when taking wages, benefits, pension etc. into account. Which is why so few seasoned CPCs quit the agency all together. The FAA has all the leverage in the world. I remember reading an article about the fired PATCO controllers in the early 80s - several of them ended up having to sell their homes, move the family back in with their parents, take jobs in construction, move of of their metro area, work retail, etc.

Take an average CPC at my Z making over $200k/yr, owns a $500k house with $380k left on the mortgage. 2 car payments, 3 kids, vacations, toys like a boat/RV with money owed, credit card debt, minimal savings. They would be absolutely financially screwed if they quit.

Everyone saying $100k is "common" for a young grad in their 20s is smoking crack, at least in the Chicagoland area. The only 4-year degree I can think of where that's true is finance - if you get into investment banking, and that generally requires a 4-year degree from a school of UChicago or similar caliber, and a lot of connections/brownnosing. And if you think the FAA is grinding you down at ARR or some other tinker toy tower, wait till you see what young investment bankers go through in their first years.

My wife started at $48k as a teacher in a top tier school district. I know an actuary who started in the $60k-ish range with a degree in Math and 2 exams. Many long-time nurses in the area still don't break $100k and wait till you see what they have to deal with on a daily basis.

I wouldn't be opposed to comp being higher, obviously. But claiming poverty and using the example of a 22 y/o starting at $100k at a level 5-6 in Chicago is a joke and is totally counterproductive.

 

[Termine]

But claiming poverty and using the example of a 22 y/o starting at $100k at a level 5-6 in Chicago is a joke and is totally counterproductive.

Yeah this. Someone a page or two back was whining about our salary being poverty-level. Imagine what people working retail earning maybe $40k a year must feel like...

 

[Nothanks]

Every single thread goes off the rails to pay. You guys need a dedicated thread to discuss/moan about pay

 

[Wizard]

There’s a lot of out of touch people in this thread

 

[Mike Kilo]

There’s a lot of out of touch people in this thread

It’s usually obvious when people haven’t had real jobs before ATC lol.

 

[ATC Zero]

1% is hilariously low. As one example, approximately 8% of schoolteachers leave the profession each year.

The problem is once you get far enough in this career, it is nearly impossible to leave and make similar total compensation when taking wages, benefits, pension etc. into account. Which is why so few seasoned CPCs quit the agency all together. The FAA has all the leverage in the world. I remember reading an article about the fired PATCO controllers in the early 80s - several of them ended up having to sell their homes, move the family back in with their parents, take jobs in construction, move of of their metro area, work retail, etc.

Take an average CPC at my Z making over $200k/yr, owns a $500k house with $380k left on the mortgage. 2 car payments, 3 kids, vacations, toys like a boat/RV with money owed, credit card debt, minimal savings. They would be absolutely financially screwed if they quit.

Everyone saying $100k is "common" for a young grad in their 20s is smoking crack, at least in the Chicagoland area. The only 4-year degree I can think of where that's true is finance - if you get into investment banking, and that generally requires a 4-year degree from a school of UChicago or similar caliber, and a lot of connections/brownnosing. And if you think the FAA is grinding you down at ARR or some other tinker toy tower, wait till you see what young investment bankers go through in their first years.

My wife started at $48k as a teacher in a top tier school district. I know an actuary who started in the $60k-ish range with a degree in Math and 2 exams. Many long-time nurses in the area still don't break $100k and wait till you see what they have to deal with on a daily basis.

I wouldn't be opposed to comp being higher, obviously. But claiming poverty and using the example of a 22 y/o starting at $100k at a level 5-6 in Chicago is a joke and is totally counterproductive.

This coming from someone who works a center, have you worked at any small facility with the staffing number under 15?
If a lot of small facilities lose one person to resigning it’s the difference of a normal year vs mandatory OT. Maybe your area is fat. It’s TBD if the resignation and FAA hiring are going to keep up, IMO it’s not going to. Why do you think NATCA has been screaming staffing for the last 10+ years.
I foresee our facility losing 10’s this year to try and stay on topic.

 

[Tater_Toad]

It’s usually obvious when people haven’t had real jobs before ATC lol.

This has been my biggest complaint about my coworkers: ATC is their first job.

My quality of life is similar to being a line cook (granted, I was valuable in the kitchen, moreso than most) in a tier 2 city. But now with a pension, health insurance, retirement contributions, and breaks. I also get stabbed and burnt a lot less.

But I've had other jobs where my quality of life far outpaced where I am now, still with no benefits though. So stability is much better, but I still live like I'm a fucking line cook. Can't take a real vacation more than once every 3 years. 3 nights in a hotel alone would wreck me let alone any airfare to get somewhere OCONUS.

It's still better than retail/service/manual labor. It's just the standard of living that should be afforded to those positions. Retail workers should have what I have, I should have the ability to leave the continent annually with my 2.5 children and wife with a retail job.

I'm not talking staying in the burj khalifa for 2 weeks but Hilton garden inn should be doable while balancing a family and a 15 year mortgage.



Anyway.... I may just have to try running interference/sleight of hand to get 4x10s next year.

Thanks to the 4 or so that are actually trying to help here.