NCEPT debate thread

[Shikaka]

They are CPC-IT's. The issue is when you think that being a CPC at a tower has anything to do with en route. No one suggests you go to AG pay or anything like that. The problem is the attitude...the attitude that somehow your tower experience is relevant. I remember one that constantly talked about how they did things in the tower. No one gives a shit how you did it in the tower. Would you give a shit if I walked into a tower and said, "Well, this is how we did at the center!" It doesn't matter.

The most successful transfers are the ones that get there and realize that it's a completely different type of environment and they are going to have to learn just about everything over again.

The funniest thing I've heard still is a center washout from ZNY coming to a tower that gets some good snow and saying he has worked snow ops before...

At the same time this is relevant to my arguement that tower washouts should get a shot at en route. It's two different ways of working traffic that are perfect for specific mentalities. No one from a center has a clue what the lowest tower is doing and vice a versa without experience.

 

[FightingIrish2012]

On another note... I didn’t see any changes to the meat and bones of that May 2019 SOP.... was it just sent out to feed us “something” for the time being, haha.

Your wrong about not seeing any changes to the “meat and potatoes “....... you didn’t see any changes at all.

 

[PushingTin]

They are CPC-IT's. The issue is when you think that being a CPC at a tower has anything to do with en route. No one suggests you go to AG pay or anything like that. The problem is the attitude...the attitude that somehow your tower experience is relevant. I remember one that constantly talked about how they did things in the tower. No one gives a shit how you did it in the tower. Would you give a shit if I walked into a tower and said, "Well, this is how we did at the center!" It doesn't matter.

The most successful transfers are the ones that get there and realize that it's a completely different type of environment and they are going to have to learn just about everything over again.

I feel like this is something a very young controller would say or care about. People have whatever frame of reference they have, based on the sum of their experience. That's the human factors and psychology part of being a good trainer; which is much more art than science. Of course they will reference it. They have pride, too. Who cares, it shouldn't factor in to whether they can work the area in the end. Personally I think ppl who are arrogant and self righteous about others who haven't had their exact experience or reached their level; just as annoying!

 

[spider]

I feel like this is something a very young controller would say or care about. People have whatever frame of reference they have, based on the sum of their experience. That's the human factors and psychology part of being a good trainer; which is much more art than science. Of course they will reference it. They have pride, too. Who cares, it shouldn't factor in to whether they can work the area in the end. Personally I think ppl who are arrogant and self righteous about others who haven't had their exact experience or reached their level; just as annoying!

It factors into whether you can work the area in the end if you refuse to accept that things are different. Falling back in tower rules is worth just as much as the, "I was just about to do that." There have been plenty of successful tower transfers. I have yet to meet a single one that hasn't said, "They are completely different environments."

I'm not against tower transfers...as I already said, the ones (myself included) who went straight to a center started with no experience. All I'm saying is that tower transfers need to realize that they are essentially starting with no experience too. I wouldn't go into a tower and start acting like I know how things get done.

 

[RH316]

 

[ATCNOMAD]

The funniest thing I've heard still is a center washout from ZNY coming to a tower that gets some good snow and saying he has worked snow ops before...

At the same time this is relevant to my arguement that tower washouts should get a shot at en route. It's two different ways of working traffic that are perfect for specific mentalities. No one from a center has a clue what the lowest tower is doing and vice a versa without experience.

The problem is there aren't low level centers for tower washouts, like there is low level towers for center washouts

It factors into whether you can work the area in the end if you refuse to accept that things are different. Falling back in tower rules is worth just as much as the, "I was just about to do that." There have been plenty of successful tower transfers. I have yet to meet a single one that hasn't said, "They are completely different environments."

I'm not against tower transfers...as I already said, the ones (myself included) who went straight to a center started with no experience. All I'm saying is that tower transfers need to realize that they are essentially starting with no experience too. I wouldn't go into a tower and start acting like I know how things get done.

I gave a tower traffic call in training at a center once, "traffic ahead and to your right." My trainer was like WTF was that ????

 

[FightingIrish2012]

The problem is there aren't low level centers for tower washouts, like there is low level towers for center washouts

There are low traffic and complexity areas within centers, and that should be the first step with a center wash out if they’ve shown the potential to certify on easier center traffic, but to admit that would be a tiny swipe at the sacred “one pay under one roof” initiative. So you can expect to see democracy in Haiti before you ever see that.

 

[Shikaka]

The problem is there aren't low level centers for tower washouts, like there is low level towers for center washouts

Level doesnt mean complexity, just because a facility is a high level doesnt mean everyone is earning their pay. My TRACON cant do their job half the time and they're a 12.

I would have gotten destroyed if I gave a traffic call like that during training at my tower.

Imagine the riot if they actually broke centers into areas for pay.

 

[LEAD004]

Your wrong about not seeing any changes to the “meat and potatoes “....... you didn’t see any changes at all.

If I recall correctly, AZO’s numbers weren’t that high in the other one... and I think other facility’s numbers changed too... the other part (the non-numbers part) was what I was referring to.

 

[Stinger]

If I recall correctly, AZO’s numbers weren’t that high in the other one... and I think other facility’s numbers changed too... the other part (the non-numbers part) was what I was referring to.

AZO numbers increased from 22 to 58 in July 2018.

 

[ATCNOMAD]

Level doesnt mean complexity, just because a facility is a high level doesnt mean everyone is earning their pay. My TRACON cant do their job half the time and they're a 12.

I would have gotten destroyed if I gave a traffic call like that during training at my tower.

A guy I worked at RNO with transferred to area E at NCT (the area that works the RNO sectors) it takes most 3 years training to make it and has a VERY high washout rate. Dude was a very good RNO controller and went to max hours and struggled to cert. He said everyone struggled to cert there. Kinda easy to talk when you haven't worked there

 

[ATCNOMAD]

No

Level doesnt mean complexity, just because a facility is a high level doesnt mean everyone is earning their pay. My TRACON cant do their job half the time and they're a 12.

I would have gotten destroyed if I gave a traffic call like that during training at my tower.

No one goes from a low level tower to a center or large TRACON and just easily checks out. Even if you go to that centers or TRACONs "easy" area. People do well in training and make it. But its never just easy.

 

[Shikaka]

No

No one goes from a low level tower to a center or large TRACON and just easily checks out. Even if you go to that centers or TRACONs "easy" area. People do well in training and make it. But its never just easy.

No where did I say it was easy.

And RNO used to work Area E when it was up/down. Either way it is all semantics, so far as numbers go it is harder to check out at RNO than it is at NCT.

 

[ATCNOMAD]

There are low traffic and complexity areas within centers, and that should be the first step with a center wash out if they’ve shown the potential to certify on easier center traffic, but to admit that would be a tiny swipe at the sacred “one pay under one roof” initiative. So you can expect to see democracy in Haiti before you ever see that.

I've seen people in centers who's training was going down hill change to a different area that is considered easier. Sometimes it helps, sometimes it doesn't. But usually it helps more because of the reset in hours and the area having a better training culture. Easier areas in centers are usually not busy as often. But still work busy time periods. So even changing areas won't help during busy periods in that "easy" area lol

No where did I say it was easy.

And RNO used to work Area E when it was up/down. Either way it is all semantics, so far as numbers go it is harder to check out at RNO than it is at NCT.

The numbers may say that. But that is hardly the truth. The gap between RNO and NCT is VERY big. It is DEFINITELY doable. Hell its been done. But the numbers just mean yall got a string of crapy trainees that should of never got the job in the 1st place

No where did I say it was easy.

And RNO used to work Area E when it was up/down. Either way it is all semantics, so far as numbers go it is harder to check out at RNO than it is at NCT.

Reno never worked area E. They worked the Silver and Nugget sectors when they where up and down. Thats a very small fraction of area E

 

[Shikaka]

The numbers may say that. But that is hardly the truth. The gap between RNO and NCT is VERY big. It is DEFINITELY doable. Hell its been done. But the numbers just mean yall got a string of crapy trainees that should of never got the job in the 1st place

The numbers are from 2010 to 2015...hell of a string. Still the evidence is there saying it's harder to certify at multiple 4,5,6 facilities:
MWH, OGG, MBS, JAN, EVV, FAR, BTR, HLN, GGG, AVP, SYR, BTV, ELM, SDL, DPA, ABI, LCH, PWM, PAO, DLH, ISP, FNT, MFD, GTF, TRI, LVK, FAY, HSV, SPI, TVC,BGR, AGC, ITO, MMU, SMF, CSG, ROA, AMA, ASE, SHV, YNG, ALO, BFL, AZO, SMO, ILM, CMA, FTW, PIA, ROC

Than it is at NCT.

 

[Usm4r1n3]

ATC... A bunch of people OK at their profession calling everyone they know bad at their profession.

 

[Shikaka]

ATC... A bunch of people OK at their profession calling everyone they know bad at their profession.

I'm the best controller in the NAS and everyone else is retarded /s

 

[ATCNOMAD]

The numbers are from 2010 to 2015...hell of a string. Still the evidence is there saying it's harder to certify at multiple 4,5,6 facilities:
MWH, OGG, MBS, JAN, EVV, FAR, BTR, HLN, GGG, AVP, SYR, BTV, ELM, SDL, DPA, ABI, LCH, PWM, PAO, DLH, ISP, FNT, MFD, GTF, TRI, LVK, FAY, HSV, SPI, TVC,BGR, AGC, ITO, MMU, SMF, CSG, ROA, AMA, ASE, SHV, YNG, ALO, BFL, AZO, SMO, ILM, CMA, FTW, PIA, ROC

Than it is at NCT.

True, numbers don't lie. All those facilities also get unproven new hires or washouts from larger towers or large radar facilities (more proven then academy grads but not much more) while places like NCT get mostly transfers. So the quality of trainees the facilities you listed is much lesser quality. Replace NCT with any center and you have a valid point. But then it can be argued that the center academy class is harder so it produces better trainees in the field. Overall I understand your beef with the system, and I hope you get to experience training at a high level radar facility. I hope you get the "easy" area lol ?

ATC... A bunch of people OK at their profession calling everyone they know bad at their profession.

The realist post I've read on here in a long time lol

 

[Shikaka]

True, numbers don't lie. All those facilities also get unproven new hires or washouts from larger towers or large radar facilities (more proven then academy grads but not much more) while places like NCT get mostly transfers. So the quality of trainees the facilities you listed is much lesser quality. Replace NCT with any center and you have a valid point. But then it can be argued that the center academy class is harder so it produces better trainees in the field. Overall I understand your beef with the system, and I hope you get to experience training at a high level radar facility. I hope you get the "easy" area lol ?

I'm more of enjoying a challenge than counting dollars per transmissions lol

 

[ATCNOMAD]

I'm more of enjoying a challenge than counting dollars per transmissions lol

End of the day, everyone wants to be in the position that accommodates them the best. Weather its location, money, challenge, lack of a challenge or even schedule. We all want the same thing just for different reasons