Facility Downgrades / Upgrades

[fivebyfive]

At what point do constant downgrades become a backdoor pay cut? At what point do we have to reevaluate the traffic strata if less airplanes with more people on them is the new normal?

Agreed. The current formula is outdated.

For instance, It was based on an aviation industry that featured a lot more air taxi (commuter turboprops) which actually added to the complexity factor because of fleet mix.

Those have since been replaced with bigger regional jets which count as air carriers which actually lower the traffic count index at a lot of Core 30 airports.

 

[TangoBearFox]

Agreed. The current formula is outdated.

For instance, It was based on an aviation industry that featured a lot more air taxi (commuter turboprops) which actually added to the complexity factor because of fleet mix.

Those have since been replaced with bigger regional jets which count as air carriers which actually lower the traffic count index at a lot of Core 30 airports.

Maybe when a new contract gets signed it will be addressed until then downgrades and pay losses for a whole lot more facilities. The pay at mid level and below facilities has not kept up with other professional careers and inflation.

 

[FightingIrish2012]

Maybe when a new contract gets signed it will be addressed

I literally just pissed my pants a bit.

 

[fivebyfive]

Maybe when a new contract gets signed it will be addressed until then downgrades and pay losses for a whole lot more facilities. The pay at mid level and below facilities has not kept up with other professional careers and inflation.

I think the play was to negotiate changes to complexity formula with the rollout of abacus. From what I've heard, funding is lacking for abacus, hence the repeated delays. I also suspect that abacus might need a lot of tweaking in order to not result in downgrades for certain Zs.

 

[Move78]

I think the play was to negotiate changes to complexity formula with the rollout of abacus. From what I've heard, funding is lacking for abacus, hence the repeated delays. I also suspect that abacus might need a lot of tweaking in order to not result in downgrades for certain Zs.

The plan was to negotiate changes to the complexity formula with the rollout of abacus. Then the FAA went psych we’re only gonna pay 2 dudes to work on the whole thing so it doesn’t roll out until the oceans boil.

 

[BCHOOSIER]

It's crazy to look back and see how many facilities in the NAS were lvl 8 or above. If you want to really feel depressed about this profession, look on aap.faa.gov and see all the facilities that have lost 2, 3, or even 4 levels in less than 20 years. I think we only have 5 up/downs left in the entire NAS that are lvl 10 or above.

 

[DonnyDarcycle]

Come to C90! Priority release, $27k move money, revamped training department and our management has become more collaborative in the last couple months. No chance we’ll ever get downgraded to an 11

 

[TangoBearFox]

It's crazy to look back and see how many facilities in the NAS were lvl 8 or above. If you want to really feel depressed about this profession, look on aap.faa.gov and see all the facilities that have lost 2, 3, or even 4 levels in less than 20 years. I think we only have 5 up/downs left in the entire NAS that are lvl 10 or above.

This should be a big fight the union should look into if it isn't already. This profession needs its pride back and act like we deserve it because we do. It's fine to be content with what we get currently but look at it big picture and times have changed and I believe all of us are getting underpaid for this career.
There are around 12K to 13k controllers right now, smaller workforce then in the past, moving more passengers than ever. We work a killer schedule literally, miss holidays and weekends, have our careers on the line with our medical, god forbid something happens to you. There are plenty of controllers that die soon after retirement which is probably due to a lack of seeing a doctor for fear of losing your medical all those years. Years of training especially if you want to move up, 6 day work weeks at too many facilities.
All these downgrades just make controllers crabs in the bucket trying to reach the top dragging other people down to get to the few places on top for retirement pay.

 

[Logical_Mongoose]

This should be a big fight the union should look into if it isn't already.

"If you aren't a 9 or more: find the door."
- NATCA National

 

[Delta_KVTA]

There are no guarantees that a facility will upgrade off of a consolidation (DAY to CMH…. MFD & CAK to CLE…)

The Ohio airports (CMH and CLE) got screwed in their consolidations. I toured both facilities a few years back and both of them said they expected to go up to a 9 within the next couple years due to taking over DAY, CAK, and MFD approaches but they remain 8’s. Maybe if CLE got ERI approach instead of BUF they could go to a 9, but even after BUF got ERI approach they still are a 7 despite ERI going down to a 4. Consolidations don’t help anyone. Even Great Lakes (AZO) only went up to an 8 despite taking way more levels away from the affected the Michigan approach controls than they gained themselves

GCN 5 > 4
PUB 8 > 7
RHV 7 > 6
SCK 5 > 4

Effective 4/9

Edited for typo

Used to work at SCK, honestly a great first facility. The main driver of our traffic was a flight school that brought students in from South Korean to learn how to fly. When Covid happened and travel restrictions were ramped up I’m pretty sure the international flight school shut down due to lack of students able to come over (happened after I NCEPT’d out) and the traffic numbers dropped significantly. A shame to see

 

[FightingIrish2012]

The Ohio airports (CMH and CLE) got screwed in their consolidations. I toured both facilities a few years back and both of them said they expected to go up to a 9 within the next couple years due to taking over DAY, CAK, and MFD approaches but they remain 8’s. Maybe if CLE got ERI approach instead of BUF they could go to a 9, but even after BUF got ERI approach they still are a 7 despite ERI going down to a 4. Consolidations don’t help anyone. Even Great Lakes (AZO) only went up to an 8 despite taking way more levels away from the affected the Michigan approach controls than they gained themselves


Used to work at SCK, honestly a great first facility. The main driver of our traffic was a flight school that brought students in from South Korean to learn how to fly. When Covid happened and travel restrictions were ramped up I’m pretty sure the international flight school shut down due to lack of students able to come over (happened after I NCEPT’d out) and the traffic numbers dropped significantly. A shame to see

Dude, consolidations are great, do you know how many people got to transfer out of those low level up/downs because of them? There were not mass upgrades but the facility level bands are huge. No was a tiny place like MFD or ERI will push a facility a level up unless they were 98% of the way there to leveling up anyway. Be it helps for variety too. Imagine working at AZO with all those walls of scopes? It would feel like working at a center or mass TRACON (without the double digit level pay), but you would never have to be too busy.

 

[rhombus]

The Ohio airports (CMH and CLE) got screwed in their consolidations. I toured both facilities a few years back and both of them said they expected to go up to a 9 within the next couple years due to taking over DAY, CAK, and MFD approaches but they remain 8’s. Maybe if CLE got ERI approach instead of BUF they could go to a 9, but even after BUF got ERI approach they still are a 7 despite ERI going down to a 4. Consolidations don’t help anyone. Even Great Lakes (AZO) only went up to an 8 despite taking way more levels away from the affected the Michigan approach controls than they gained themselves

What really screwed the Ohio airports is the fact that they’re in Ohio

 

[HappyController]

Come to C90! Priority release, $27k move money, revamped training department and our management has become more collaborative in the last couple months. No chance we’ll ever get downgraded to an 11

Can’t tell if this is a joke or serious.

 

[AB19]

Can’t tell if this is a joke or serious.

It’s serious

 

[PrisonMike]

Can’t tell if this is a joke or serious.

Better get yo papers in

 

[NervousBusyTrafficTapping]

Agreed. The current formula is outdated.

For instance, It was based on an aviation industry that featured a lot more air taxi (commuter turboprops) which actually added to the complexity factor because of fleet mix.

Those have since been replaced with bigger regional jets which count as air carriers which actually lower the traffic count index at a lot of Core 30 airports.

Worth also mentioning that high performance jets that fly under a November callsign also count the same as a C172 flying under a November callsign.

The way the contract is currently written, a radar controller sequencing 5 November-tailed jets with 5 November-tailed props on final, counts the same as sequencing 10 jets alone or 10 props alone, even though there's more complexity in blending the two. For towers, there's also no consideration for ground control, call for releases, vehicle operations on active runways, TMU coordination, etc. even though they all add to varying complexity of towers.

But to be honest, if we actually had a truthful and *fair* way of analyzing facility ratings, people would absolutely hate it. It's much easier for people to accept the illusion that N90's Islip area deserves the same pay as Newark area, and a busy as shit VFR tower is the same difficulty as a sleepy level 7 up/down.

 

[Logical_Mongoose]

For towers, there's also no consideration for ground control, call for releases, vehicle operations on active runways, TMU coordination, etc. even though they all add to varying complexity of towers.

If vehicle operations on active runways counted, ERI & ROC would be a level 8 and BUF would be a level 12. 🤣

 

[GulfBravoPapa]

The aviation world has changed a lot since the traffic count index was created and doesn't do a great job evaluating today's traffic. My airport is boasting its busiest year ever meanwhile we are getting downgraded because they're using two bigger planes and not eight CRJ2 flights a day to the same destination. But by passenger count the airport is busier than it has ever been.

 

[AB19]

There’s more regional pilots than ATC and regional pilots are paid more than level 7 and down. Almost like we aren’t paid what we’re worth

 

[Motodog]

There’s more regional pilots than ATC and regional pilots are paid more than level 7 and down. Almost like we aren’t paid what we’re worth

Regional pilots used to say the same thing about being underpaid. Supply went down, demand went up. Pay went up. Collective bargaining/free market. Magical