Holding Controllers Accountable

[Smitty]

Peter Gibbons If you were at SBN or AUS you wouldn't be so quick w the hot takes brother. You know not of what you speak on this one.

 

[Ad1234]

Or, the jokes happen because of a comical, borderline criminal lack of accountability over a period of years despite every controller speaking out and management playing lawyerball instead of putting safety first.

A lawyer can’t do anything with people bitching on the internet, especially if the story is more or less true. Like the drunk controller in Vegas.

The one thing you need to be successful in ATC is to be good at moving airplanes. You can be a transgender, anarco-communist, wheelchair bound half Puerto Rican half Chinese half poodle otherkin demisexual Norse pagan they them and if you’re good at your job, people will respect you, even if they don’t like you. if you aren’t good at your job and you point the finger at others and refuse to take ownership of what you have (or haven’t) done, people are Going to shit on you.
ATC is about the closest thing to a pure meritocracy. Everyone know who can and can’t hang, and esteem is doled out accordingly.

Even those who are on the lower end of the skill spectrum get kudos for working hard. If you suck but you show you are trying, people will fall over themselves to go to bat for you. People innately respect hustle, effort and work ethic. If you suck and your reaction to sucking is that you don’t care or all you ever do is make excuses and blame others, you’re stranding yourself on an island. People won’t waste energy trying to help someone who doesn’t want it.

Shitty people have no one race, creed, gender, orientation etc. To assume that the only possible reason a person is catching flak because of their demographics is the shittiest thing of all. Unwarranted Victimhood is so 2020.

Even if the story is true no one should be talking about it. period. A lawyer can use that simply to get a settlement.

 

[Peter Gibbons]

Or, the jokes happen because of a comical, borderline criminal lack of accountability over a period of years despite every controller speaking out and management playing lawyerball instead of putting safety first.

A lawyer can’t do anything with people bitching on the internet, especially if the story is more or less true. Like the drunk controller in Vegas.

The one thing you need to be successful in ATC is to be good at moving airplanes. You can be a transgender, anarco-communist, wheelchair bound half Puerto Rican half Chinese half poodle otherkin demisexual Norse pagan they them and if you’re good at your job, people will respect you, even if they don’t like you. if you aren’t good at your job and you point the finger at others and refuse to take ownership of what you have (or haven’t) done, people are Going to shit on you.
ATC is about the closest thing to a pure meritocracy. Everyone know who can and can’t hang, and esteem is doled out accordingly.

Even those who are on the lower end of the skill spectrum get kudos for working hard. If you suck but you show you are trying, people will fall over themselves go to bat for you. If you suck and your reaction is that you don’t care or all you ever do is make excuses and blame others, you’re stranding yourself on an island. People won’t waste energy trying to help someone who doesn’t want it.

Shitty people have no one race, creed, gender, orientation etc. To assume that the only possible reason a person is catching flak because of their demographics is the shittiest thing of all. Unwarranted Victimhood is so 2020.

Again, not my views and you are missing the point. I totally agree none of that has anything to do with anyone's ability to do the job, since we agree on that why is it being brought up, particularly when the person in question allegedly uses that type of stuff to show he's being unjustly targeted?

If you want accountability giving him ammo isn't the move. If the dude is trash and got where he is not on merit but on using this type of stuff to get what he wants why add to that?

Peter Gibbons If you were at SBN or AUS you wouldn't be so quick w the hot takes brother. You know not of what you speak on this one.

I don't need to have worked there to have seen the playback and know the smollet jokes and hotep talk have zero to do with dudes working ability and shouldn't be part of the conversation with people so intent on holding dude accountable, and if anything they reinforce his views true or not.

Again, I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with anything just saying the conversation being had here doesn't seem productive, and worst case could be harmful.

 

[J_MF_B]

Everyone is talking about trainers, but what about trainees? It takes two people to make a quality controller…the trainer who trains for success and the trainee who wants to succeed. You need a trainer that’s tough but wants you to succeed and a trainee that’s dedicated and wants to succeed. A trainee who believes CPC status is earned not given. Unfortunately as much as there’s a lack of quality trainers, I think there’s a lack of quality trainees.

100% AGREE WITH YOU!!!

 

[twn]

Even if the story is true no one should be talking about it. period. A lawyer can use that simply to get a settlement.

So we should just sweep it under the rug kinda how NATCA did with the Jamal incident?

 

[acutetriangles]

So we should just sweep it under the rug kinda how NATCA did with the Jamal incident?

Whatever happened to that video?

 

[Peter Gibbons]

So we should just sweep it under the rug kinda how NATCA did with the Jamal incident?

I think the point being made is its great and healthy to talk about the incident itself, and the work related relevant things even some of it being pure speculation, but all the other talk is just inflammatory and not helping, particularly if you want accountability and it NOT to get swept under the rug to avoid a lawsuit.

 

[J_MF_B]

the quality of trainee is fixable only by the quality of the trainer as both an educator and an employee. if the trainers knows how to control, teach, and document according to the order the trainee goes bye bye. end of story. bitch about the quality of trainee all you want but if the first gate keeper, the trainer allows them to pass....what's management gonna say? hell if management says anything a vast majority of the workers bitch about it, trainees see this and don't respect them right out the gate, no wonder they feel they are being railroaded, they see the reaction around them. I'm not excusing management but in this one area, we make their position harder just because we don't want too be hassled or appear to support them.

look at that one reddit post recently, the trainer is scared to say how the guy cant give traffic calls at 150/170 hours and the trainer of the day doesn't fucking know what to do. imagine the supe then certifies him, well the trainers said okay. or imagine if he doesnt because he fucks up his check ride, the trainers will say hes fine I said hes fine why didt you certify, imagine if the supe then says his documented performance doesn't justify a certification, the trainers would go nuts. there is alot of bullshit trainers do that cause so many problems.

I can’t speak for the quality of new trainees because I’m not at an an academy fed facility, I’m sure there’s a big difference in training a CPC IT vs an AG. But again a decent trainer does not push people through. I have a good track record with my trainees both military and FAA because I like training. Building a trainees confidence is a big part of it and most people don’t have the tools or patience for it.

" Building a trainees confidence is a big part of it and most people don’t have the tools or patience for it." I totally agree with you, but trainee needs to build his/her/.... own confidence by knowing the SOP, LOAs, items applicable from 7110.65... so when trainee plugs in and start working live traffic... he/she/.... at least he/she/... knows their own airspace, runway separation, the basic MF shiyet you need to know to do your MF job!!!

When people compare controllers who knows book knowledge but can't control, from controllers who can control but don't know their book knowledge. doesn't make sense to me... those good controllers who can control know what they're doing because they're applying the knowledge and know when they're breaking the rules for SAFETY and can "CYA" when something happens and can answer all those questions....

P.S I am the most hated trainer at my facility.

 

[Ad1234]

" Building a trainees confidence is a big part of it and most people don’t have the tools or patience for it." I totally agree with you, but trainee needs to build his/her/.... own confidence by knowing the SOP, LOAs, items applicable from 7110.65... so when trainee plugs in and start working live traffic... he/she/.... at least he/she/... knows their own airspace, runway separation, the basic MF shiyet you need to know to do your MF job!!!

When people compare controllers who knows book knowledge but can't control, from controllers who can control but don't know their book knowledge. doesn't make sense to me... those good controllers who can control know what they're doing because they're applying the knowledge and know when they're breaking the rules for SAFETY and can "CYA" when something happens and can answer all those questions....

P.S I am the most hated trainer at my facility.

When your classroom Is shit, the facility culture and morale are bad, scamming and laziness are up……you think the trainee is gonna be better than you? No they are going to mimic the exact behavior they see. Saying you earned yours isn’t going to mean shit as you argue the .65 and end up being wrong.

Obviously in some instances there isn’t shit you can do no matter how good of a culture and trainer you are, there will always be shit heads. But a bad trainee in an excellent culture will always be unsuccessful.

 

[J_MF_B]

When your classroom I shit, the facility culture and morale are bad, scamming and laziness are up……you think the trainee is gonna be better than you? No they are going to mimic the exact behavior they see. Saying you earned yours isn’t going to mean shit as you argue the .65 and end up being wrong.

Obviously in some instances there isn’t shit you can do no matter how good of a culture and trainer you are, there will always be shit heads. But a bad trainee in an excellent culture will always be unsuccessful.

I totally agree with you! This is exactly what's going on... They mimic what they see.... and the one person who wants to help them succeed and be better is the one who ends up being the bad person.... I am not sure how to take what you're saying " saying you earned yours isn’t going to mean shit as you argue the .65 and end up being wrong..."???

I miss my military days when we are all on the same page when it comes to training and what we all need to do... been over 12 years ago... That's why I am shocked when I joined the FAA when it comes to training... but I am just going to continue to still CARE and still give my 100%, especially with the new controllers.

 

[Ad1234]

I totally agree with you! This is exactly what's going on... They mimic what they see.... and the one person who wants to help them succeed and be better is the one who ends up being the bad person.... I am not sure how to take what you're saying " saying you earned yours isn’t going to mean shit as you argue the .65 and end up being wrong..."???

I miss my military days when we are all on the same page when it comes to training and what we all need to do... been over 12 years ago... That's why I am shocked when I joined the FAA when it comes to training... but I am just going to continue to still CARE and still give my 100%, especially with the new controllers.

I have often found the people who say “trainees are bad these days, I worked way harder to get cpc” are the same people who don’t know the rules and continue to argue when they are wrong time and time again and are unable to take constructive criticism. You know the boomer attitude

 

[Smitty]

I don't need to have worked there to have seen the playback

Havent you ever watched one of the "break the chain" videos in IST training? Some people are given much much much much much much much longer leashes than others.

 

[SharDiNae]

Peter Gibbons If you were at SBN or AUS you wouldn't be so quick w the hot takes brother. You know not of what you speak on this one.

Whats with SBN? Out of curiosity

 

[RomeoTangoRT]

Now there’s a report out today of a UAL 777 departing out of Maui back in December that was never reported where the 777 climbed to 2,200ft before basically nosediving (8,600 fpm) to roughly 770ft then climbing again at a climb rate of 8,600 fpm. Pulled 2.7 Gs and frankly idk how they didn’t stall.

 

[Phillytroll69]

Now there’s a report out today of a UAL 777 departing out of Maui back in December that was never reported where the 777 climbed to 2,200ft before basically nosediving (8,600 fpm) to roughly 770ft then climbing again at a climb rate of 8,600 fpm. Pulled 2.7 Gs and frankly idk how they didn’t stall.View attachment 8369

Y they do dis

 

[RomeoTangoRT]

Y they do dis

Only one pilot I know who can pull this maneuver off.

 

[boots]

Is the union going to protect “them” since they aren’t a member?

 

[Phillytroll69]

Is the union going to protect “them” since they aren’t a member?

The union represents ALL controllers.
Some might argue how thoroughly

 

[onGuard]

I think the point being made is its great and healthy to talk about the incident itself, and the work related relevant things even some of it being pure speculation, but all the other talk is just inflammatory and not helping, particularly if you want accountability and it NOT to get swept under the rug to avoid a lawsuit.

is it speculation if people in this thread have worked with him?

I get bashing the dudes "beliefs'" is out of line especially since what caused the incident was his lack of skill. On the other hand, beliefs shared by this individual make people scared and make it impossible for constructive criticism since in HIS mind everyone is against him based on the color of his skin and fails to realize he just sucks ?‍♂️

 

[Billybob]

I know it’s a stretch but if this guy thinks what he thinks and now finds an anonymous board posting his stuff in the street as if it’s common knowledge might further along his belief that he’s the victim and make it slightly easier for a lawyer to take his case.

“Your honor my client found a post on a message board that he found was defamatory, we ask you to look past him almost killing two hundred people and give him money.”

What upsets me most is not how stupid your post is, it’s that in the current times this could be granted by the right judge.