military experience vs FAA

[Kvlad313]

There you go... Had to hunt for it on my computer.

Thank you for this. Very helpful. Is there an updated ish version of this you can share?

 

[SolicitSVFR]

Yeah, for many reasons. Traffic count is already a pretty tenuous direct comparison, then add in things like how they get that count... "Oh I forgot to click this shift. Felt like about 120. (it was 7)" or places like Randolph that claim 400k ops in the tower, while its an RSU with tex2s just in the rectangular pattern for 8 hrs.

What’s a RSU operation?

 

[MJ]

What’s a RSU operation?

RUNWAY SUPERVISORY UNITS (RSU)

The primary function of the RSU is to monitor arrivals and departures of designated military aircraft.
The RSU must not be used for ATC service except:
In an emergency situation; or
At undergraduate pilot training/pilot instructor training (UPT/PIT) locations to UPT/PIT aircraft for preventive control purposes.
Radio silence must be maintained at all times unless actual safety of flight is involved or as outlined in subparagraph e above.

 

[NotKC]

What’s a RSU operation?

Basically you watch trainees go round and round and you don't interfere unless you see a safety of flight issue. Military trainers only. Mega traffic count. Not so mega effort

 

[RomeoTangoRT]

Glad to see this being discussed, not that it changes anything. We all know the FAA’s arbitrary hiring process lacks sufficiency. It’s not really any different from an Air Force RAPCON that claims 400k ops but the reality is one fighter traverses 3 or 4 sectors to get to a warning area and back. So one op really counts for 10 or 20. I also think, while not perfect, gauging ops per controller would be a better definition of a controllers ability. You could do a million ops a year but if you have 50 bodies splitting it, you’re only working 20k a person. Whereas if you’re doing 300k a year with 6 controllers, your workload has more than doubled.

Because of this, you have guys with one cto at a 50k op/year tower and one approach ticket who are getting level 8/9 tower only facilities somehow over a guy who has 10+ years experience most recently working one of the busiest biz jet terminals in the country. That guy gets the privilege of going to a level 4 and train alongside someone who has 2 months ATC experience. All the while they’ve been working 50-100 ops/hr, writing and coordinating with the FAA for LOAs, etc. Then there’s the guy with one approach ticket and hasn’t talked to a plane in four years, zero proficiency, and gets 8/9 up downs. No offense to those controllers because frankly it’s not on them how the FAA determines one’s abilities but man…

Was actually discussing the RSUs and sector dilemma at Randolph, Columbus, and Eglin with my manager (retired AF and retired AF DoD controller) a few days ago. How Randolph is a farce because they have parallels where T-6s are bouncing with an RSU on one runway and T-38s doing the same on the other. Not to mention each runway has their OWN TOWER. Not split local, two towers.

I don’t have a dog in the fight but I am noticing a lot of the shortcomings of the hiring/placement process. Play the hand you’re dealt I guess. Go to that level 4 or 5 tower only with 99% staffing, get your qual in 3 months and immediately bid your final destination instead of measuring sticks by going to a level 8 up down where you train for 3 years and can’t transfer for another 4. ??‍♂️ Play their game.

I’ve never worked with an RSU but I’ve done FCLPs with an LSO which is more or less the same operation. Taxi them out then they’re on the LSO’s control until their ops are complete then I taxi them back. Notwithstanding having to break their operation for a recovery or launch in which case I’d just have them hold above pattern altitude in left/right hand turns until the recovery was complete then relinquish control back to the LSO and kick my feet up. There’s virtually zero work done by your actual tower controller. It’s essentially preventive control on your behalf. We’d also do that with helos.

“Preventive control approved last 1,000ft runway 8 at or below 500ft left hand pattern. Remain east of midfield, south of the 04 centerline and north of the 14 centerline. Traffic multiple fighters left hand break 800ft runway 14, additional traffic company helo doing the same thing second 1,000ft runway 8, additional traffic holding overhead runway 04 at 1,500ft 6 T-45s. Report ops complete and number of ops.”

That was my first CTO checkride ??

 

[NotKC]

Glad to see this being discussed, not that it changes anything. We all know the FAA’s arbitrary hiring process lacks sufficiency. It’s not really any different from an Air Force RAPCON that claims 400k ops but the reality is one fighter traverses 3 or 4 sectors to get to a warning area and back. So one op really counts for 10 or 20. I also think, while not perfect, gauging ops per controller would be a better definition of a controllers ability. You could do a million ops a year but if you have 50 bodies splitting it, you’re only working 20k a person. Whereas if you’re doing 300k a year with 6 controllers, your workload has more than doubled.

Because of this, you have guys with one cto at a 50k op/year tower and one approach ticket who are getting level 8/9 tower only facilities somehow over a guy who has 10+ years experience most recently working one of the busiest biz jet terminals in the country. That guy gets the privilege of going to a level 4 and train alongside someone who has 2 months ATC experience. All the while they’ve been working 50-100 ops/hr, writing and coordinating with the FAA for LOAs, etc. Then there’s the guy with one approach ticket and hasn’t talked to a plane in four years, zero proficiency, and gets 8/9 up downs. No offense to those controllers because frankly it’s not on them how the FAA determines one’s abilities but man…

Was actually discussing the RSUs and sector dilemma at Randolph, Columbus, and Eglin with my manager (retired AF and retired AF DoD controller) a few days ago. How Randolph is a farce because they have parallels where T-6s are bouncing with an RSU on one runway and T-38s doing the same on the other. Not to mention each runway has their OWN TOWER. Not split local, two towers.

I don’t have a dog in the fight but I am noticing a lot of the shortcomings of the hiring/placement process. Play the hand you’re dealt I guess. Go to that level 4 or 5 tower only with 99% staffing, get your qual in 3 months and immediately bid your final destination instead of measuring sticks by going to a level 8 up down where you train for 3 years and can’t transfer for another 4. ??‍♂️ Play their game.

How that RAPCON gets away with 20x traffic count, I have no idea. But how many chiefs have rotated in and out of that place and been like yeah that's legit ?

 

[GulfCharlie]

I’ve never worked with an RSU but I’ve done FCLPs with an LSO which is more or less the same operation. Taxi them out then they’re on the LSO’s control until their ops are complete then I taxi them back. Notwithstanding having to break their operation for a recovery or launch in which case I’d just have them hold above pattern altitude in left/right hand turns until the recovery was complete then relinquish control back to the LSO and kick my feet up. There’s virtually zero work done by your actual tower controller. It’s essentially preventive control on your behalf. We’d also do that with helos.

“Preventive control approved last 1,000ft runway 8 at or below 500ft left hand pattern. Remain east of midfield, south of the 04 centerline and north of the 14 centerline. Traffic multiple fighters left hand break 800ft runway 14, additional traffic company helo doing the same thing second 1,000ft runway 8, additional traffic holding overhead runway 04 at 1,500ft 6 T-45s. Report ops complete and number of ops.”

That was my first CTO checkride ??

I count myself fortunate I’ve never had to do FCLP’s.

 

[RomeoTangoRT]

How that RAPCON gets away with 20x traffic count, I have no idea. But how many chiefs have rotated in and out of that place and been like yeah that's legit ?

It’s not necessarily how many chiefs have been through and deemed it legit, frankly I wouldn’t be surprised if they were the ones pushing the faux numbers. Higher traffic volume + more sectors = higher allotted staffing numbers. So the more sectors that one jet traverses, ultimately the more bodies they can get assigned to that facility.

I count myself fortunate I’ve never had to do FCLP’s.

How long have you been there? ? I loved FCLPs, meant I didn’t have to do anything. Aside from having a pilot sit in the tower all week coordinating with the LSO and the ship, I was all for it.

 

[GulfCharlie]

How long have you been there? ? I loved FCLPs, meant I didn’t have to do anything. Aside from having a pilot sit in the tower all week coordinating with the LSO and the ship, I was all for it.

about 2.5 years, I want to tell you they have done them twice, once for sure.

 

[RomeoTangoRT]

about 2.5 years, I want to tell you they have done them twice, once for sure.

Sure beats IMC Tuesday's. Overall vibe at least lol y’all still do those? Every khaki in the division breathing down some poor E2’s neck trying to figure out how to operate the PAR ?

 

[GulfCharlie]

Sure beats IMC Tuesday's. Overall vibe at least lol y’all still do those? Every khaki in the division breathing down some poor E2’s neck trying to figure out how to operate the PAR ?

PAR’s been OTS because calibration equipment can’t get certified, yeah IMC Thursdays are still a thing. You should have seen IMC Tuesday when we ground stopped the adjacent tower because multiple emergency fuel inbounds (?). There was no way to squeeze out departures.

 

[RomeoTangoRT]

PAR’s been OTS because calibration equipment can’t get certified, yeah IMC Thursdays are still a thing. You should have seen IMC Tuesday when we ground stopped the adjacent tower because multiple emergency fuel inbounds (?). There was no way to squeeze out departures.

I bet they loved that ? but that’s what happens when you have a bunch of F5s depart with an hour of fuel, sit in the warning areas for 45 minutes, declare min fuel then want to shoot 4 approaches after already declaring min fuel. Make it make sense. They’ll shoot one approach and won’t have enough fuel to divert if they needed to lol can’t even land next door. Which isn’t entirely true, I’ve seen it once. They had to send maintainers over there to strip it down to its bare essentials, basically departed with enough fuel to get them airborne on a 3ft runway and coast on fumes into 8.

 

[Mike Kilo]

I knew a prior military controller that came from a military base that was an 8 according to the FAA equivalent chart. They were a danger to the NAS. They, along with plenty of prior military controllers I've worked with think they know a lot more than they truly do.

Just like any other CTI or OTS person, I’ve seen amazing military controllers and the dumbest controllers I’ve ever seen lol. I truly believe it doesn’t matter whether you are Military, OTS or CTI.

 

[RomeoTangoRT]

Just like any other CTI or OTS person, I’ve seen amazing military controllers and the dumbest controllers I’ve ever seen lol. I truly believe it doesn’t matter whether you are Military, OTS or CTI.

Military controllers are just OTS controllers with an extra step. Nobody was born into ATC. I’ve always been under the mindset that controlling either clicks for you or it doesn’t and I’ve had a hard time finding anyone in the middle ground.

When I was going through training, I scored significantly higher on radar than I did tower, and yet, I’ve been a tower flower majority of my career thus far.

 

[D-Dub]

Military controllers are just OTS controllers with an extra step. Nobody was born into ATC. I’ve always been under the mindset that controlling either clicks for you or it doesn’t and I’ve had a hard time finding anyone in the middle ground.

When I was going through training, I scored significantly higher on radar than I did tower, and yet, I’ve been a tower flower majority of my career thus far.

I liked radar way better than tower when I went through training. I've yet to even be anything but a tower controller 😂

 

[RomeoTangoRT]

I liked radar way better than tower when I went through training. I've yet to even be anything but a tower controller 😂

I enjoyed being able to look out the window but I had more fun with seq and sep. Nothing felt better than setting a good sequence. I do miss the sound of jets though. I hated working at HWO where you had 15 c152s on each parallel just beating the pattern up. There was a bit of adrenaline involved just in that you would look left to clear someone then look back right and the guy you told to continue upwind was in their crosswind turn cutting off downwind traffic. Every single time. Or the opposite, extend downwind I’ll call your base… hey wtf are you doing??? I saw traffic on final and turned to follow. Dude… there’s like 7 people behind them you can’t just turn when you feel like it.

Every. Single. Day.

 

[TheShadow]

The FAA has always had a hard on for military controllers that work heavy’s. If you’re at Travis or McGwire you’re got a golden ticket.

 

[Mike_Lima]

The FAA has always had a hard on for military controllers that work heavy’s. If you’re at Travis or McGwire you’re got a golden ticket.

Well in terms of tower training where I am at, working heavies in the pattern is one of the “complex” situations. So in my experience having experience dealing with endless wake turbulence in the past has helped.

 

[D-Dub]

I enjoyed being able to look out the window but I had more fun with seq and sep. Nothing felt better than setting a good sequence. I do miss the sound of jets though. I hated working at HWO where you had 15 c152s on each parallel just beating the pattern up. There was a bit of adrenaline involved just in that you would look left to clear someone then look back right and the guy you told to continue upwind was in their crosswind turn cutting off downwind traffic. Every single time. Or the opposite, extend downwind I’ll call your base… hey wtf are you doing??? I saw traffic on final and turned to follow. Dude… there’s like 7 people behind them you can’t just turn when you feel like it.

Every. Single. Day.

Can't relate to that volume of HWO, but when I was at my last FCT it would be very much similar scenarios. Or we'd get a visual dumped on us over the field with multiple in each downwind, and just have to figure it out.

I hope I get in an up/down some day and get some radar exp.

 

[RomeoTangoRT]

Can't relate to that volume of HWO, but when I was at my last FCT it would be very much similar scenarios. Or we'd get a visual dumped on us over the field with multiple in each downwind, and just have to figure it out.

I hope I get in an up/down some day and get some radar exp.

It was fun in its own right. We had like 3 miles south and 2 miles north, airspace was capped at 1500 cause those nerds working approach at MIA had an LOA with us to drop their carrier traffic down for their sequence. Good times. Oh and god for bid we have an IFR departure who couldn’t do the VFR to IFR transition because they were unfamiliar. It wasn’t uncommon for those guys to sit at the hold short for more than an hour. Which, given our volume, put a bottleneck in our operation.

Or approach would dump a visual on us in between two VFR inbounds at six miles when our loa said prior to 10 or whatever it was.

Anyways, reliving nightmares 😂