military experience vs FAA

[D-Dub]

It was fun in its own right. We had like 3 miles south and 2 miles north, airspace was capped at 1500 cause those nerds working approach at MIA had an LOA with us to drop their carrier traffic down for their sequence. Good times. Oh and god for bid we have an IFR departure who couldn’t do the VFR to IFR transition because they were unfamiliar. It wasn’t uncommon for those guys to sit at the hold short for more than an hour. Which, given our volume, put a bottleneck in our operation.

Or approach would dump a visual on us in between two VFR inbounds at six miles when our loa said prior to 10 or whatever it was.

Anyways, reliving nightmares 😂

They've gotta read the LOA to actually follow it right? Idk how HWO and IWA manage to keep people there. That staffing mixed with that volume is just wild 😂

 

[BDUB]

They've gotta read the LOA to actually follow it right? Idk how HWO and IWA manage to keep people there. That staffing mixed with that volume is just wild 😂

So overworked and underpaid it’s crazy that’s why staffing is so trashed lol

 

[RomeoTangoRT]

They've gotta read the LOA to actually follow it right? Idk how HWO and IWA manage to keep people there. That staffing mixed with that volume is just wild 😂

So overworked and underpaid it’s crazy that’s why staffing is so trashed lol

We averaged in the ballpark of 51,000 ops per controller when I was there which is 15-20k ops per controller higher than any other facility in the NAS. All while making less working 60 hour weeks than FLL next door was making on 40s. (For comparison - FLL did 13,368 ops per controller but I calculated that with their current staffing a 26, I think they had 24 when I was there so give or take 1-2k. We had 6 controllers.) Yeah, it sucked but the experience gained was nice I guess.

Edit: don’t know what IWA’s staffing looks like so I couldn’t formulate a number but it would sit somewhere between 30k and 50k per controller.

 

[TushingPin]

We averaged in the ballpark of 51,000 ops per controller when I was there which is 15-20k ops per controller higher than any other facility in the NAS. All while making less working 60 hour weeks than FLL next door was making on 40s. (For comparison - FLL did 13,368 ops per controller but I calculated that with their current staffing a 26, I think they had 24 when I was there so give or take 1-2k. We had 6 controllers.) Yeah, it sucked but the experience gained was nice I guess.

Edit: don’t know what IWA’s staffing looks like so I couldn’t formulate a number but it would sit somewhere between 30k and 50k per controller.

View attachment 8713

That's a cool image. Where did it come from?

 

[BDUB]

I'm curious on how these numbers are figured up. Are you talking about total CPCs in the building? If so CNO has 11 CPCs and if you took 2019 pre-covid traffic they did 11,545 ops per CPC. If you're talking about positions staffed, does CNO only keep LC/GC/FD/CIC open? That gets closer with 31,750 ops. I know several level 8-9 towers doing way more traffic per controller than that. Hell, ABE a level 7, does 45,000 ops per controller by that logic because they only staff 2 in the tower. 31k if you include the CIC down in the radar room that isn't helping.

Either way, I think GC at any higher level core 30 is way harder than any of those low levels listed for Tower. I also find it laughable that any of those TRACONs are harder than A80, C90, and N90.

I think the argument being made was that the two contract towers that were stated often times have controllers work the entire tower combined and therefore work 30-50k ops per controller….also when you say they only staff 2 in the tower how many controllers all together do they have. IWA had 3 or 4 cpcs and a manger pretty much all last yr….

 

[RB]

I've worked contract. MTN had 5 controllers or less and you often work the tower combined. They're pushing 100k ops. That's with mixing a-10s, Gulfstreams, and Cherokees in the pattern to a single runway. Still so much easier than any 7 or higher in the FAA. Barely any rules to follow other than "don't scrape paint".

You cant compare a place like that to IWA, HWO, CHD though lol.

 

[RomeoTangoRT]

That's a cool image. Where did it come from?

I gotchu

Easiest facilities for every dollar/ hardest facilities for every dollar

 

[DankVectorz]

Using solely ops per controller is a terrible metric.

 

[RomeoTangoRT]

I think the argument being made was that the two contract towers that were stated often times have controllers work the entire tower combined and therefore work 30-50k ops per controller….also when you say they only staff 2 in the tower how many controllers all together do they have. IWA had 3 or 4 cpcs and a manger pretty much all last yr….

GoGators It’s calculated by dividing total number of ops by total number of CPCs. It’s not a perfect formulation but it at least gives you a general idea. What you fail to realize is in 2019 (the year I worked at HWO and the year you’re referencing), HWO was ranked 28th in the country in tower ops. Little ole contract facility nobody gave a fuck about.

As to you “thinking” ground at any “higher level core 30 is way harder than any of those low levels listed for tower” … brother I would challenge you on that 8 days of the week. Don’t take that as me advocating that ground at LAX or DAL or ATL is easy by any stretch of the imagination. Don’t attempt to speak on the situation unless you’ve stood silently in the background of the tower cab on a day where you have 2 controllers for an entire shift and you push 1,500 ops that day on a north or south operation. While I haven’t worked at a level 10, 11, 12 tower, I’d bet my bank on putting that ground operation toe to toe with any airport in the FAA of your choosing.

How many times have you plugged in, cut the ATIS, and 7 minutes into opening the tower you’re calling out on the frequency “last calling ground remain on the ramp and standby, you’re number 33”? Because I’ve done it, multiple times. North or south operation at North Perry is one of the most difficult ground operations in the NAS and I’ll fight that to the grave. I received a ground pass down one day that went something like this:

“This is XX briefing YY on ground… **points out to airfield** this is what you’ve got.” Release the brief button and first transmission is “attention all aircraft do not speak on frequency until spoken to, I see all y’all out there and I will reach out individually to get you where you’re going. If you’re conducting pattern work, expect to taxi back to the ramp for an hour plus delay for traffic work, let’s get it.” **five planes immediately key up at the same time and squelch in your ear**

We had six controllers and a manager who was at hooters more often than the tower. It’s a bitch pulling into the parking lot at 640am and seeing 15 planes lined up doing run ups at the hood short of each runway.

Before you say I’m embellishing, we’ve had your FAA counterparts visit for an investigation/study. Reps from ATLA, MSP, and MIA. Who simply stood in the back observing. To have all three reps stop you on your way out the door after a 10 hour shift and ask if you do that every single day, 5-6 hours on position at a time without a break, can’t split local off, and run at that capacity day in and day out. To then tell you if you can work that traffic on a routine basis, that you could work at any facility in the NAS? I have ground to stand on.

But don’t gaslight me or anyone who’s worked the operation because you “think” it’s more difficult elsewhere. It’s time y’all put some respect on the name.

Here’s our airfield diagram and airspace map for reference. I’ve seen planes instructed to enter left downwind for 01L, called their interval, cleared to land, emphasis on 01L and they land 10L and miss 2 planes by less than 50ft. I’ve had simultaneous departures off 10L and 10R, aircraft off 10R have engine failure departure end airborn and make a diving left turn to land 10L opposite direction and the 10L departure run off the runway at full power to avoid the crashing emergency. I’ve had banner towers lose their engine with a banner in tow, drop the banner on the street, and crash into a parking garage resulting in fatalities. I’ve had a Seneca lose power on a 3 mile final and crash into a bank parking lot killing both student and instructor. I’ve had aircraft catch fire at the hold short. On more occasions than I can count have I had aircraft on unstable approach veer off the runway. I’ve had really good pilots/instructors go down in the Everglades, break both legs, manage to survive. I once had a student conducting their first solo, taxi out, depart without clearance, have to go around, next pass land, and run off the runway edge and crash. I was only there for a year. I’ve seen more accidents in that time than most people see in their careers.

What was the FAA’s solution? “We’re going to increase your staffing from 8 to 10.” Gee, thanks. That sure solves the issue of being able to staff the facility. Love the pat on their own back for fixing the problem. So instead of being 75% staffed we were 60%.

And to your very last point, nobody claimed anything was easier or harder. The post was simply highlighting based on one set of numbers who works the most and least ops per controller. It’s only one measurement. While the list does say “hardest facilities” it clarifies that it means most ops per controller. Ops per controller doesn’t paint the whole picture and it’s only 1 dimensional but it’s a metric nonetheless. Anyways…

**steps down off pedestal**

Using solely ops per controller is a terrible metric.

To play devil’s advocate, so is saying I think another facility is more difficult without providing any context to your argument. Similarly, basing your opinion on how difficult a facility is because “all they work is puddle jumpers” and “they’re just a small contract tower, it’s not as difficult as an FAA facility because … they’re not in the FAA *vomits from mouth, convulsing*” 🤷🏻‍♂️

 

[DankVectorz]

To play devil’s advocate, so is saying I think another facility is more difficult without providing any context to your argument. Similarly, basing your opinion on how difficult a facility is because “all they work is puddle jumpers” and “they’re just a small contract tower, it’s not as difficult as an FAA facility because … they’re not in the FAA *vomits from mouth, convulsing*” 🤷🏻‍♂️

I mean, you’re not being devils advocate because that is correct?

 

[TushingPin]

GoGators It’s calculated by dividing total number of ops by total number of CPCs. It’s not a perfect formulation but it at least gives you a general idea. What you fail to realize is in 2019 (the year I worked at HWO and the year you’re referencing), HWO was ranked 28th in the country in tower ops. Little ole contract facility nobody gave a fuck about.

As to you “thinking” ground at any “higher level core 30 is way harder than any of those low levels listed for tower” … brother I would challenge you on that 8 days of the week. Don’t take that as me advocating that ground at LAX or DAL or ATL is easy by any stretch of the imagination. Don’t attempt to speak on the situation unless you’ve stood silently in the background of the tower cab on a day where you have 2 controllers for an entire shift and you push 1,500 ops that day on a north or south operation. While I haven’t worked at a level 10, 11, 12 tower, I’d bet my bank on putting that ground operation toe to toe with any airport in the FAA of your choosing.

How many times have you plugged in, cut the ATIS, and 7 minutes into opening the tower you’re calling out on the frequency “last calling ground remain on the ramp and standby, you’re number 33”? Because I’ve done it, multiple times. North or south operation at North Perry is one of the most difficult ground operations in the NAS and I’ll fight that to the grave. I received a ground pass down one day that went something like this:

“This is XX briefing YY on ground… **points out to airfield** this is what you’ve got.” Release the brief button and first transmission is “attention all aircraft do not speak on frequency until spoken to, I see all y’all out there and I will reach out individually to get you where you’re going. If you’re conducting pattern work, expect to taxi back to the ramp for an hour plus delay for traffic work, let’s get it.” **five planes immediately key up at the same time and squelch in your ear**

We had six controllers and a manager who was at hooters more often than the tower. It’s a bitch pulling into the parking lot at 640am and seeing 15 planes lined up doing run ups at the hood short of each runway.

Before you say I’m embellishing, we’ve had your FAA counterparts visit for an investigation/study. Reps from ATLA, MSP, and MIA. Who simply stood in the back observing. To have all three reps stop you on your way out the door after a 10 hour shift and ask if you do that every single day, 5-6 hours on position at a time without a break, can’t split local off, and run at that capacity day in and day out. To then tell you if you can work that traffic on a routine basis, that you could work at any facility in the NAS? I have ground to stand on.

But don’t gaslight me or anyone who’s worked the operation because you “think” it’s more difficult elsewhere. It’s time y’all put some respect on the name.

Here’s our airfield diagram and airspace map for reference. I’ve seen planes instructed to enter left downwind for 01L, called their interval, cleared to land, emphasis on 01L and they land 10L and miss 2 planes by less than 50ft. I’ve had simultaneous departures off 10L and 10R, aircraft off 10R have engine failure departure end airborn and make a diving left turn to land 10L opposite direction and the 10L departure run off the runway at full power to avoid the crashing emergency. I’ve had banner towers lose their engine with a banner in tow, drop the banner on the street, and crash into a parking garage resulting in fatalities. I’ve had a Seneca lose power on a 3 mile final and crash into a bank parking lot killing both student and instructor. I’ve had aircraft catch fire at the hold short. On more occasions than I can count have I had aircraft on unstable approach veer off the runway. I’ve had really good pilots/instructors go down in the Everglades, break both legs, manage to survive. I once had a student conducting their first solo, taxi out, depart without clearance, have to go around, next pass land, and run off the runway edge and crash. I was only there for a year. I’ve seen more accidents in that time than most people see in their careers.

What was the FAA’s solution? “We’re going to increase your staffing from 8 to 10.” Gee, thanks. That sure solves the issue of being able to staff the facility. Love the pat on their own back for fixing the problem. So instead of being 75% staffed we were 60%.

And to your very last point, nobody claimed anything was easier or harder. The post was simply highlighting based on one set of numbers who works the most and least ops per controller. It’s only one measurement. While the list does say “hardest facilities” it clarifies that it means most ops per controller. Ops per controller doesn’t paint the whole picture and it’s only 1 dimensional but it’s a metric nonetheless. Anyways…

**steps down off pedestal**
View attachment 8714View attachment 8715

Working at a contract tower that was not as busy as this, but at times was stupid, this all sounds accurate.
Unfortunately the FAA doesn't give a shit about contracts and it wont matter until someone takes ownership (outside of SERCO/Midwest/RVA), the owners of the companies are all in cahoots and just lining their own pockets. Safety is barely a metric to them, and this typically turns into the privatization conversation....

 

[RomeoTangoRT]

I mean, you’re not being devils advocate because that is correct?

Touche

Working at a contract tower that was not as busy as this, but at times was stupid, this all sounds accurate.
Unfortunately the FAA doesn't give a shit about contracts and it wont matter until someone takes ownership (outside of SERCO/Midwest/RVA), the owners of the companies are all in cahoots and just lining their own pockets. Safety is barely a metric to them, and this typically turns into the privatization conversation....

I won’t take the conversation there for the simple fact that’s been my argument against it a hundred times before. But when *insert contract company* is making $200/hr per slot while paying out $40/hr, what incentive do they have for securing staffing.

The issue with a facility like HWO (or IWA) is that regardless of hiring practices, nobody wants to work that hard in retirement, because most are retired DoD, military, or FAA controllers. If they haven’t aged out, there’s an even smaller population of adolescent controllers who could handle that volume of traffic. I was there for 16 months. In that time, I saw 4 retirees wash out or quit during training (one in the middle of their ground session) and 2 certify. Aside from myself, we had 3 controllers I worked with in the navy certify prior to my arrival. Ones currently at Denver tracon and I’m not sure where the other two are.

One of the issues is/was the company as well as local airport authority/county/city gave more of a fuck about the numbers we were pushing than how we were doing. Why are we doing full stop taxibacks, why are we suspending pattern ops? But weren’t questioning why planes were crashing once a week. You had cubs and c152s hot lapping for 12 hours straight with a 5 minute turnaround on the ramp for the new instructor and trainee to hop in and take the controls. You can search “HWO crash” on YouTube and see pages and pages of news stories.

But like most places and most things, they try to remedy the result and not the issue.

 

[DELTAxxKILO]

found these oldies on my computer from FY18 and FY15.

I wish there was a better way to compare FAA and Military traffic though because anyone thats worked both knows the traffic is just different. counts way different. And traffic count in general doesn't take into account the type of controlling. I've met plenty of controller that have worked "busy" locations that have never worked radar patterns where aircraft doing multiple approaches, or even pop-up VFR aircraft. Idk I think the equivalents the FAA uses are off

 

[Dolan]

Using solely ops per controller is a terrible metric.

Wait why do you think that? It's one of the best metrics there is and the pay in the agency would be a hell of a lot more fair if it was taken into consideration more

 

[DankVectorz]

Wait why do you think that? It's one of the best metrics there is and the pay in the agency would be a hell of a lot more fair if it was taken into consideration more

A: big facilities are broken down into different areas and the amount of traffic worked in each area can vary greatly so just taking total traffic count and dividing by total CPC’s is a very skewed picture

B: the type of traffic makes a difference. ie. Working 50k VFR’s is not the same as 50k IFR’s (at least in radar) etc.

C. Complexity makes a much bigger difference than traffic numbers. Airspace design, proximity of airports, whether center puts guys on the localizer 100 miles out or you actually have to vector and sequence etc. Working 10 planes in airspace 50 miles wide with 8,000’ of altitude to work with is a lot different than 10 planes in 20 miles wide airspace with 2,000’ of altitude.

You really gonna sit there with a straight face and say Las Vegas Tracon is the hardest Tracon in the country and A80/N90/C90 don’t even make the top 5?

 

[MJ]

You really gonna sit there with a straight face and say Las Vegas Tracon is the hardest Tracon in the country

It’s clearly Helena.

 

[D-Dub]

It’s clearly Helena.

I thought it was R90?

 

[Dolan]

You really gonna sit there with a straight face and say Las Vegas Tracon is the hardest Tracon in the country and A80/N90/C90 don’t even make the top 5?

I haven't worked at any of those. Ops per controller is a hell of a lot more fair with some of the vfr towers though, where LC is stuck doing the job of approach control and tmu rolled into one position. I can say with absolute confidence that the vfr tower I came from was more difficult than any sector that my level 12 has and the reason is primarily the operations per controller.

 

[COWTOWN]

A: big facilities are broken down into different areas and the amount of traffic worked in each area can vary greatly so just taking total traffic count and dividing by total CPC’s is a very skewed picture

B: the type of traffic makes a difference. ie. Working 50k VFR’s is not the same as 50k IFR’s (at least in radar) etc.

C. Complexity makes a much bigger difference than traffic numbers. Airspace design, proximity of airports, whether center puts guys on the localizer 100 miles out or you actually have to vector and sequence etc. Working 10 planes in airspace 50 miles wide with 8,000’ of altitude to work with is a lot different than 10 planes in 20 miles wide airspace with 2,000’ of altitude.

You really gonna sit there with a straight face and say Las Vegas Tracon is the hardest Tracon in the country and A80/N90/C90 don’t even make the top 5?

Well said. A Burbank or Van Nuys arrival from the east talks to 4 different SCT sectors before it even gets to the Burbank area where it talks to at least 2 sectors there before they call tower. All for one traffic count. That's just one example of hundreds around the NAS that work like this.

 

[BDUB]

Well said. A Burbank or Van Nuys arrival from the east talks to 4 different SCT sectors before it even gets to the Burbank area where it talks to at least 2 sectors there before they call tower. All for one traffic count. That's just one example of hundreds around the NAS that work like this.

Fair also a VFR talks to ground probably multiple times and tower a few times and still counts as 1 operation…