Pushed to the brink? Another NYT article rehashes all the problems that haven't changed since before Reagan and PATCO

[CaptainObvious]

What about a compromise: FAA is required to give you a 12hour down period but you can opt for as little as 8hrs.

Now everyone can be happier and get what they want maybe.

“Yeah, we’re a little short on the day shift on XX date, so we scheduled you for an 8 hour turn”

 

[Bandit117]

All this stuff is negotiated locally. If you think you have a better plan get with your facrep/e-board a few months before schedule negotiations start. Build your schedule based off the shift guidelines and how many are bidding. Put it up to a vote with the members and you can be the change in your facility. The problem is that many people like the rattlers, and finding a balanced schedule that pleases everyone is difficult. I’d recommend getting some other coworkers on board to try and build schedules as well, so you can vote between multiple options.

The faa is obligated to be the adult in the room and say “this schedule literally kills you, it’s bad for fatigue management and therefore has a negative impact on safety, so we won’t allow it”.

It’s called Organizational inertia. The faa is counting on it stopping meaningful change because they can’t figure out any other way to run things. It’s why they rejected the results. Not based on any actual reason that’s scientific or mathematical, but because “it would be too hard for us to figure out how to run a schedule any other way”.

“Schedules are negotiated locally” is an absolute cop out and an attempt by senior leadership to shirk responsibility.

 

[32andBelow]

The faa is obligated to be the adult in the room and say “this schedule literally kills you, it’s bad for fatigue management and therefore has a negative impact on safety, so we won’t allow it”.

It’s called Organizational inertia. The faa is counting on it stopping meaningful change because they can’t figure out any other way to run things. It’s why they rejected the results. Not based on any actual reason that’s scientific or mathematical, but because “it would be too hard for us to figure out how to run a schedule any other way”.

“Schedules are negotiated locally” is an absolute cop out and an attempt by senior leadership to shirk responsibility.

The schedule is literally illegal for pilots. The FAA will fine an airline if they schedule pilots in this manner

 

[ncssailor]

SUPs are afraid to approve shift swap requests when above the guideline numbers because they are afraid of people calling in sick

I’ve seen the same things, problem is no matter what if a closer calls in on sick leave and everyone else is sick of OT they always have a problem. They think we shouldn’t be allowed to use our earned benefits it’s down right ridiculous what I hear management talking about. There’s no amount of staffing that can fix people not wanting to come work on their day off especially day of phone calls…..have fun listening to my voicemail🤣

The faa is obligated to be the adult in the room and say “this schedule literally kills you, it’s bad for fatigue management and therefore has a negative impact on safety, so we won’t allow it”.

It’s called Organizational inertia. The faa is counting on it stopping meaningful change because they can’t figure out any other way to run things. It’s why they rejected the results. Not based on any actual reason that’s scientific or mathematical, but because “it would be too hard for us to figure out how to run a schedule any other way”.

“Schedules are negotiated locally” is an absolute cop out and an attempt by senior leadership to shirk responsibility.

To be honest there’s a lot of facilities that are not 24 hours that’s could change what their operating hours are and have a lower number and then increase that staffing numbers at the 24hr facilities. Less operating hours allows for better scheduling options and less amount of quick turns.
Not sure why we have to be open early as fuck for one Fedex arrival and one departure. And open late for the same and maybe someone that wants to go do TandG til 11pm. When the majority of ops happens 7am-9pm most places.

 

[DankVectorz]

The schedule is literally illegal for pilots. The FAA will fine an airline if they schedule pilots in this manner

Even the Air Force required 12 hours between shifts for ATC

 

[CHALUPE71]

“Yeah, we’re a little short on the day shift on XX date, so we scheduled you for an 8 hour turn”

What about a compromise: FAA is required to give you a 12hour down period but you can opt for as little as 8hrs.

Now everyone can be happier and get what they want maybe.

"Im opting out, due to fatigue".... Cofee has provided the out.

 

[Raise when?]

The schedule is literally illegal for pilots. The FAA will fine an airline if they schedule pilots in this manner

Lol I’ve heard flight attendants have longer rest between flights

 

[32andBelow]

Lol I’ve heard flight attendants have longer rest between flights

10 hours by law

 

[ncssailor]

10 hours by law

Sounds pretty typical FAA/NATCA bs.
Enforce rules on everyone else but turn a blind eye to their own employees.
On top of multiple studies that prove the schedules they allow are horrible. I don’t wanna hear it’s a local thing. Make national and FAA dictate 10 hours, and then rework the current schedule…all shifts on BWS just made up anyway and changes when the pay period get published most the time.

 

[32andBelow]

Sounds pretty typical FAA/NATCA bs.
Enforce rules on everyone else but turn a blind eye to their own employees.
On top of multiple studies that prove the schedules they allow are horrible. I don’t wanna hear it’s a local thing. Make national and FAA dictate 10 hours, and then rework the current schedule…all shifts on BWS just made up anyway and changes when the pay period get published most the time.

The problem is we need a total rework on how we do things. What we can’t do is these bandais that are applied on top of what we have. Like 10 hours on top of raddler would suck. 10 hours but straight 4 10s or 4 8s would be chill

 

[Golf delta]

The faa is obligated to be the adult in the room and say “this schedule literally kills you, it’s bad for fatigue management and therefore has a negative impact on safety, so we won’t allow it”.

It’s called Organizational inertia. The faa is counting on it stopping meaningful change because they can’t figure out any other way to run things. It’s why they rejected the results. Not based on any actual reason that’s scientific or mathematical, but because “it would be too hard for us to figure out how to run a schedule any other way”.

“Schedules are negotiated locally” is an absolute cop out and an attempt by senior leadership to shirk responsibility.

Do you really want the FAA to take over responsibility of setting our shifts? Why don’t you talk to coworkers and find out how many people like rattlers and how many don’t. Build a schedule that can please both. Right now at my facility, on each set of days off we have swing lines, day lines, a rattler with a mid, and several non-mid rattlers. The day lines have 1 early swing followed by 4 days, and the swing lines have 4 swings followed by a day.

 

[ncssailor]

The problem is we need a total rework on how we do things. What we can’t do is these bandais that are applied on top of what we have. Like 10 hours on top of raddler would suck. 10 hours but straight 4 10s or 4 8s would be chill

Agree. When we went from 8 hour turn to 9 it wasn’t a huge deal. What’s one more hour? It will be a bandaid to improve fatigue.
I’m sorry but getting off at 930 pm drive home 30 minutes then try to get to bed immediately and then 5 am alarm it’s getting old.

 

[Phillytroll69]

Agree. When we went from 8 hour turn to 9 it wasn’t a huge deal. What’s one more hour? It will be a bandaid to improve fatigue.
I’m sorry but getting off at 930 pm drive home 30 minutes then try to get to bed immediately and then 5 am alarm it’s getting old

1-you guys can vote for a rep for a new schedule that doesn't have turns
2-you can request shift changes
3-if shift change is denied and you are too fatigued for work, there is an article in the contract

Know your rights and use them

 

[BDUB]

Do you really want the FAA to take over responsibility of setting our shifts? Why don’t you talk to coworkers and find out how many people like rattlers and how many don’t. Build a schedule that can please both. Right now at my facility, on each set of days off we have swing lines, day lines, a rattler with a mid, and several non-mid rattlers. The day lines have 1 early swing followed by 4 days, and the swing lines have 4 swings followed by a day.

They don’t need to take over responsibility but having common sense oversight like they do with the airlines makes actual sense. Also why the hell do people like the rattler I can’t think of one positive thing from it?

 

[Tater_Toad]

I can already imagine how many people would quit and look for new jobs if this happened. I think a lot of you underestimate how many people hate swings shifts and would not be happy with a month of them. Ive never heard a single complaint about the rattler in person, just on here and reddit.

You're a deaf fuck stick or a piece of shit nobody likes talking to because the rattler is completely fucking stupid and if your face rep had a set they'd tell you to shut the fuck up so the rest of the workforce could be heard over the whining of the fucking idiots that need to retire already.

 

[Raise when?]

You're a deaf fuck stick or a piece of shit nobody likes talking to

Why not both?

 

[PooseMaGoose]

CoffeeIV has the uncanny ability to bring the rage out of people in these forums. It's not a crime to be a dumbfuck, so let's ease up on the poor fella, eh?

 

[Somenewguy]

They don’t need to take over responsibility but having common sense oversight like they do with the airlines makes actual sense. Also why the hell do people like the rattler I can’t think of one positive thing from it?

I'm not a rattler fan, but it's not productive to pretend there's no benefits. It's been around for so long for a reason.

1. Longer weekend - leaving Friday at 6am and off work until Monday at 3pm gives you a lot more flexibility for out of town trips, especially for locations where you need to fly for travel. You can pretend it's not a lot, but it is.

2. More flexibility scheduling OT shifts for management. If you leave a swing at 11pm on your Friday, you can't cover for an opener the next morning. If you start Monday at 6am, you can't work the Sunday swing. It leaves more people available to work more shifts.

3. Inflexibility with being scheduled outside of work hours for BUEs. You KNOW that certain hours are impossible to be scheduled for you to work. For that reason, it can be easier to make real commitments to activities, clubs, events, etc. without any concern that work may be scheduled (holdover or extra shift).

4. Fairness - it does suck, but it tends to suck equally.

5. It is easier to plan for a normal life with a rattler than with rotating multiple weeks of days/swings/mids. Anyone with social commitments outside of work appreciates the consistency. Anyone with kids needs the consistency unless they have a really accommodating stay at home spouse, which is unlikely if you're at a 9 or below.

6. Proficiency/familiarization. Working every different shift gets you experience working most of the different traffic situations that exist at your facility. If you only work one shift, you may have certain skills that improve and others atrophy because you never have to solve certain conflicts or use certain procedures.

Are these benefits worth the negatives? I don't think so, and I think most facilities should look for alternatives. The problem is that there isn't enough staffing for a lot of alternatives. What I usually see tossed around is really fucking people low on the totem pole (50% of a facility) into taking the garbage shifts so that a few people can have a reasonable schedule.

 

[Phillytroll69]

I'm not a rattler fan, but it's not productive to pretend there's no benefits. It's been around for so long for a reason.

1. Longer weekend - leaving Friday at 6am and off work until Monday at 3pm gives you a lot more flexibility for out of town trips, especially for locations where you need to fly for travel. You can pretend it's not a lot, but it is.

2. More flexibility scheduling OT shifts for management. If you leave a swing at 11pm on your Friday, you can't cover for an opener the next morning. If you start Monday at 6am, you can't work the Sunday swing. It leaves more people available to work more shifts.

3. Inflexibility with being scheduled outside of work hours for BUEs. You KNOW that certain hours are impossible to be scheduled for you to work. For that reason, it can be easier to make real commitments to activities, clubs, events, etc. without any concern that work may be scheduled (holdover or extra shift).

4. Fairness - it does suck, but it tends to suck equally.

5. It is easier to plan for a normal life with a rattler than with rotating multiple weeks of days/swings/mids. Anyone with social commitments outside of work appreciates the consistency. Anyone with kids needs the consistency unless they have a really accommodating stay at home spouse, which is unlikely if you're at a 9 or below.

6. Proficiency/familiarization. Working every different shift gets you experience working most of the different traffic situations that exist at your facility. If you only work one shift, you may have certain skills that improve and others atrophy because you never have to solve certain conflicts or use certain procedures.

Are these benefits worth the negatives? I don't think so, and I think most facilities should look for alternatives. The problem is that there isn't enough staffing for a lot of alternatives. What I usually see tossed around is really fucking people low on the totem pole (50% of a facility) into taking the garbage shifts so that a few people can have a reasonable schedule.

1 is no longer a benefit if you have ot, also not everyone gets a mid.
2 management's lack of scheduling availability should not be a problem, we should be staffed. Rest is safety oriented, you can always reduce flows for staffing.
3/5 this is any job? Easier to plan a normal life with the rattler...maybe compared to throwing darts at a schedule, I'm sure for some a week of days and a week of nights would be better, this is at most personal preference
4 it doesn't suck equally the favorites get shift changes
6 maybe if it's straight mids it's the same stuff every day

 

[CaptainObvious]

SUPs are afraid to approve shift swap requests when above the guideline numbers because they are afraid of people calling in sick

You’re above guidelines ever?