The great "CIP" mystery

[PushingTin]

Next thread from PushingTin: Do center controllers deserve health care?!?

? This is dumb even as a troll. Everyone has the same healthcare. CIP is special. MJ himself just pointed out what a joke it is. I'm not against anyone. I just want to get to the bottom of these unusual and apparently very mysterious things and this forum is the best (probably only) place to attempt it.

This just shows nobody knows what the hell justifys CIP or not. Lots of smart knowledge controllers here and no actual answers.

 

[PushingTin]

It's my opinion that if locality rates would just get adjusted accordingly CIP wouldn't even be needed or wouldn't run out ¾ of the way through the year because we could give it to those that need it most.

You make some good thoughtful points. I don't want one penny of CIP to go away... If anything negotiate for more. The more the merrier! I just think it's pretty clear however "they're" doing it is clearly extremely hush hush and presumably obsolete. No one with a straight face can say CIP for ASE is a bad idea... I just wonder how all these other facilities snuck in? Its pretty clear its political. And yeah, if it was revisited it could prob be done in a way where it didn't run out every fall.

I have had very similar experiences to MJ. Going up as high as RVP asking questions, and literally never getting an answer. Only shhhhhh's. Fight club!

 

[liter a cola]

Just from a little research, it appears cip came about during the 1998 contract negotiation.

While I worked at Vegas we were in negotiations with the faa for the slate book. As many know Jamaal, the LAS tower rep was on the negotiations team and was often asked questions by the locals during this time.

He always responded that he couldn't talk about it and had signed a NDA to insure both sides bargain in good faith.

With that being said I doubt anyone will ever get answers about CIP for two reasons;

1. The guys that negotiated the 98 contract were probably made to sign a NDA.

2. The guys that negotiated that article are long gone, and we are trying to figure out something that happened 21 years ago.

 

[Romeo-Zulu]

Just from a little research, it appears cip came about during the 1998 contract negotiation.

While I worked at Vegas we were in negotiations with the faa for the slate book. As many know Jamaal, the LAS tower rep was on the negotiations team and was often asked questions by the locals during this time.

He always responded that he couldn't talk about it and had signed a NDA to insure both sides bargain in good faith.

With that being said I doubt anyone will ever get answers about CIP for two reasons;

1. The guys that negotiated the 98 contract were probably made to sign a NDA.

2. The guys that negotiated that article are long gone, and we are trying to figure out something that happened 21 years ago.

Nice work ???

 

[BCHOOSIER]

I've asked many times about CIP. Many facilities around my last facility received it but we did not. When asking around about it within my district no one really answered my questions as to how a facility qualified for it.
I was also told that management working at our district offices received it, which made no sense why someone who wasn't controlling planes or working in a facility would be entitled to it...2152 for life!

 

[PushingTin]

While I worked at Vegas we were in negotiations with the faa for the slate book. As many know Jamaal, the LAS tower rep was on the negotiations team and was often asked questions by the locals during this time.

He always responded that he couldn't talk about it and had signed a NDA to insure both sides bargain in good faith.

With that being said I doubt anyone will ever get answers about CIP for two reasons;

1. The guys that negotiated the 98 contract were probably made to sign a NDA.

2. The guys that negotiated that article are long gone, and we are trying to figure out something that happened 21 years ago.

I appreciate that Jamaal would not give up inside info on real time negotiations , but there would be no prohibition on discussing now. I'm almost certain that the list has been tweaked here or there (facilities always added never subtracted) since the Clinton era Green Book 1998 days. You make good points, but the CIP 30 million is not frozen in time from 1998 until For-everrrrrrr. Look at all the facilities who got absolutely hammered by downgrades. Seems like that might be a good place to start in rethinking where it should go. Do you have a copy of the Red book? Im pretty sure there was that standard blurb in there that said a work group would be established to look at CIP within 180 days of ratification. I vaguely remember asking an RVP what ever happened to that work group? And was totally yes'ed off and given the run around; which made me realize there was something off about it.

I've asked many times about CIP. Many facilities around my last facility received it but we did not. When asking around about it within my district no one really answered my questions as to how a facility qualified for it.
I was also told that management working at our district offices received it, which made no sense why someone who wasn't controlling planes or working in a facility would be entitled to it...2152 for life!

This is a great set of anecdotes. I knew there were tons of stories like this out there about CIP. The only plausible reason for this is Saginaw presumably didnt have any political connects at the time all the other small MI facilities were given it? Lansing 1.1%, Ann Arbor 5.3%!!!, Grand Rapids 1.1%, Detroit 2.4%, etc etc etc. Its strange as hell.

p.s. I love the thumb of Michigan!

 

[SwampDonkey]

Bitching about CIP is like bitching about centers getting paid too much. It's not 0 sum. Whoever gets CIP good for them. Just like instead of wanting all the centers to be 10s you should want all the facilities to be 12s. Why would national want to risk losing 30 million in wages? Yes some of the numbers have been in place for years and don't make sense.

FWIW, all centers should be 13's (new level just for us) AND get CIP of 10%.

 

[BCHOOSIER]

I appreciate that Jamaal would not give up inside info on real time negotiations , but there would be no prohibition on discussing now. I'm almost certain that the list has been tweaked here or there (facilities always added never subtracted) since the Clinton era Green Book 1998 days. You make good points, but the CIP 30 million is not frozen in time from 1998 until For-everrrrrrr. Look at all the facilities who got absolutely hammered by downgrades. Seems like that might be a good place to start in rethinking where it should go. Do you have a copy of the Red book? Im pretty sure there was that standard blurb in there that said a work group would be established to look at CIP within 180 days of ratification. I vaguely remember asking an RVP what ever happened to that work group? And was totally yes'ed off and given the run around; which made me realize there was something off about it.




This is a great set of anecdotes. I knew there were tons of stories like this out there about CIP. The only plausible reason for this is Saginaw presumably didnt have any political connects at the time all the other small MI facilities were given it? Lansing 1.1%, Ann Arbor 5.3%!!!, Grand Rapids 1.1%, Detroit 2.4%, etc etc etc. Its strange as hell.

p.s. I love the thumb of Michigan!

Don't forget about PTK and YIP as well!

 

[GMX]

I think LAN gets it because there's a mid shift with like 3 operations and 1 field check (Saturday night just a field check). Oh and it's the "Capital City"!

 

[liter a cola]

I appreciate that Jamaal would not give up inside info on real time negotiations , but there would be no prohibition on discussing now. I'm almost certain that the list has been tweaked here or there (facilities always added never subtracted) since the Clinton era Green Book 1998 days. You make good points, but the CIP 30 million is not frozen in time from 1998 until For-everrrrrrr. Look at all the facilities who got absolutely hammered by downgrades. Seems like that might be a good place to start in rethinking where it should go. Do you have a copy of the Red book? Im pretty sure there was that standard blurb in there that said a work group would be established to look at CIP within 180 days of ratification. I vaguely remember asking an RVP what ever happened to that work group? And was totally yes'ed off and given the run around; which made me realize there was something off about it.




This is a great set of anecdotes. I knew there were tons of stories like this out there about CIP. The only plausible reason for this is Saginaw presumably didnt have any political connects at the time all the other small MI facilities were given it? Lansing 1.1%, Ann Arbor 5.3%!!!, Grand Rapids 1.1%, Detroit 2.4%, etc etc etc. Its strange as hell.

p.s. I love the thumb of Michigan!

You have honest questions that should be answered. I have a red book floating around somewhere, hell we had a green book floating around at my 2nd facility where I was the rep for sometime.

In the slate book FAQ sheet that was published while it was still tentative I believe, it has the same blurb that you mentioned saying it would be looked at and adjusted if necessary, collaboratively.

If you are getting stonewalled and you seriously want answers and going to cfs or a convention is not feasible to ask in person I'd recommend getting on the natca BBS and posting your questions there to the executive e-board.

 

[NavyTrev]

I think PCT started receiving CIP when the Command Center (which had it) was built right next door on the same grounds. It wasn’t immediate, PCT had to bring up. Rumors no proof. Northern VA is expensive and state income tax blows.

 

[Phillyman2633]

1. The guys that negotiated the 98 contract were probably made to sign a NDA.

2. The guys that negotiated that article are long gone, and we are trying to figure out something that happened 21 years ago.

This document is probably why nobody gets Time Off/Cash awards anymore, and why controllers get tape talks for their phraseology after saves instead. I wonder if theres an MOU somewhere to give ATMs bonuses for not giving any TOAs that's been swept under the rug.

 

[PushingTin]

This document is probably why nobody gets Time Off/Cash awards anymore, and why controllers get tape talks for their phraseology after saves instead. I wonder if theres an MOU somewhere to give ATMs bonuses for not giving any TOAs that's been swept under the rug.

"there is no money for those". It is definitely odd how cash awards and TOA went away. I remember a time when FLM would flippantly say, oh hey i put all you guys who worked that shitshow of a short staffed weather filled shift in for a TOA, i appreciate you guys doding good work. blah blah. Which was cool and unexpected. I havent heard of anything like that in over 4 years.

I think LAN gets it because there's a mid shift with like 3 operations and 1 field check (Saturday night just a field check). Oh and it's the "Capital City"!

LOL Capital City bonus conspiracy theory! $$$. Madison, WI also raking in that CIP cheese! but not Indianapolis, Springfield, Columbus, Harrisburg, Albany, etc., so debunked. Michigan does seem to get an awful lot of CIP for being a relatively low cost of living state. At least they aren't moving ATC jobs to Mexico yet. And hey, MMUN tower supports us!

Just from a little research, it appears cip came about during the 1998 contract negotiation.

from your doc...


"Controller Incentive Pay As part of the new pay system for controllers, FAA and NATCA entered into a national MOU providing controllers with an additional cost-of-living differential. As a result of this MOU, in FY 2002, controllers at 110 locations received between 1 and 10 percent in a cost-of-living pay differential known as Controller Incentive Pay (CIP), which is in addition to Government-wide locality pay. In addition, FAA management provided this additional cost-of-living allowance to air traffic field managers, supervisors, and specialists. In FY 2002, CIP cost FAA about $35.5 million. "

so it was billed generically as a "cost-of-living differential". Hmmm. maybe super vague and open ended on purposed, so as to be used as a slush fund? ?

 

[FightingIrish2012]

This is getting way too sketchy, I think they should suspend all CIP until a answer is found as to how it is determined, and then adjusted as necessary for economic conditions that changed 20 years later. Give it a hiatus like NCEPT is.

 

[PushingTin]

In the slate book FAQ sheet that was published while it was still tentative I believe, it has the same blurb that you mentioned saying it would be looked at and adjusted if necessary, collaboratively.

This was the 2016 CIP MOU. I believe they just agreed to take no action. "In Order to attract and retain employees at targeted facilities". So shouldnt it be reallocated to the shortest staffed facilities that everyone wants out of? the ones where people are stuck in perpetuity waiting for the next "dynamic decisions" to be made at future NCEPT panels. Last i checked, M98 was one of the easiest facilities to attract and retain employees at!

 

[GulfBravoPapa]

This was the 2016 CIP MOU. I believe they just agreed to take no action. "In Order to attract and retain employees at targeted facilities". So shouldnt it be reallocated to the shortest staffed facilities that everyone wants out of? the ones where people are stuck in perpetuity waiting for the next "dynamic decisions" to be made at future NCEPT panels. Last i checked, M98 was one of the easiest facilities to attract and retain employees at!

View attachment 2617

We've lost five in the last month thanks.

 

[Stinger]

This document is probably why nobody gets Time Off/Cash awards anymore

I know of like 10 controllers at one facility alone that have received Time Off and Cash awards in the last couple months.

 

[pedaNTIc]

I'm at a facility with CIP. Considering it is an Incentive to work at said facility, it works.

 

[fivebyfive]

"there is no money for those". It is definitely odd how cash awards and TOA went away. I remember a time when FLM would flippantly say, oh hey i put all you guys who worked that shitshow of a short staffed weather filled shift in for a TOA, i appreciate you guys doding good work. blah blah. Which was cool and unexpected. I havent heard of anything like that in over 4 years.

I've gotten both a cash award and a TOA in the last year and a half....

 

[PushingTin]

I've gotten both a cash award and a TOA in the last year and a half....

Lucky you. Some facilities don't believe in it I guess. Or maybe it's by region?