The great "CIP" mystery

PushingTin

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For those who don't know (and I bet its more than half of controllers out there) CIP stands for Controller Incentive Pay, In Article 108 S12 of the CBA. It is a fixed pool amount of $30,000,000 annually. A select few facilities get it, and it is based on the "facility fixed amount". Most do not . Ask any higher up in NATCA or the agency what its based on and you will hear a different answer each time. some people say "cost of living" . Some say "hard to staff facilities". Some say "the Runzheimer index". Some site a study done in 1970-something. Who gets it and why? there seems to be no rhyme or reason to it. Yet asking or inquiring about it is taboo and seems to makes people uncomfortable. CIP is sort of like Fight club. NEVER ask about CIP in a critical or questioning way. you will be told.... "shhhhh, those who get it, get it. Those who dont, dont. it is a finite pool. " Which I was told by an RVP directly. Obviously the N90 extra CIP thing is smartly not tied to the original 30 million pool so i'm not questioning that, its its own thing.

A lot of the facilities that get it "make sense" to the eye test. Like ASE, ZNY, OAK, LGA, LGB, LAX etc. Then there are others that are kinda like... huh? GRR, LAN, MKE, ROC, TUS, etc. I say make sense insofar as you say "oh that's an expensive place", though no one truly knows the criteria or if being "an expensive place" even means anything, because isn't that the general premise of locality. Seems pretty clear that some of these facilities that get CIP are based on straight politics and nothing scientific. All that to stay, who here knows the real deal behind CIP? It seems to have pretty much defaulted into a nice permanent boondoggle for those who get it.
Has any facility that ever got it, STOPPED getting it? lol, as if. And for those who dont....shhhh...fight club!

When are the rates agreed on? When can or do they change? Where is this published? Who runs it? Why is the number 30 million? What is the exact specific articulated reason for its existence? How can a facility qualify for it going forward?

List current as of 2016.

2614

 

mrobs15

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Most of the 10% are either in NY area or CA. So your cost of living/hard to staff argument goes a long way.
 

PushingTin

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Most of the 10% are either in NY area or CA. So your cost of living/hard to staff argument goes a long way.
Yes and that "makes sense", but does not answer what the exact criteria is and what its based on. Especially since several arent high cost places OR hard to staff. And even if those ARE the criteria, where is it written? Has it ever been amended? etc.
 

mrobs15

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Sounds like one of those things that no one knows and no one wants to ask because if we go looking they might find out "oh that was supposed to stop years ago" and then *poof!*
 

FightingIrish2012

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It’s weird ROC gets it. Places like SYR and ALB don’t and the cost of living and taxes are the same or higher there. BGM and ELM are also central NY facilities which don’t get it.
 

PushingTin

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It’s weird ROC gets it. Places like SYR and ALB don’t and the cost of living and taxes are the same or higher there. BGM and ELM are also central NY facilities which don’t get it.
ROC is a good one to point out. No facility around them gets it, and they aren't hard to staff or in a high cost of living area. BUF, SYR, ELM, BGM, ALB, ERI, CLE, YNG, ZOB, ZBW, AVP, PIT, MDT.... lol you can literally keep widening the circle of facilities around ROC and none of them have ever got CIP. Something crooked and wrong w CIP.
 

twn

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ROC is a good one to point out. No facility around them gets it, and they aren't hard to staff or in a high cost of living area. BUF, SYR, ELM, BGM, ALB, ERI, CLE, YNG, ZOB, ZBW, AVP, PIT, MDT.... lol you can literally keep widening the circle of facilities around ROC and none of them have ever got CIP. Something crooked and wrong w CIP.
"Politics"
 

Move78

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Bitching about CIP is like bitching about centers getting paid too much. It's not 0 sum. Whoever gets CIP good for them. Just like instead of wanting all the centers to be 10s you should want all the facilities to be 12s. Why would national want to risk losing 30 million in wages? Yes some of the numbers have been in place for years and don't make sense.
 

PushingTin

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Yes some of the numbers have been in place for years and don't make sense.
I am still (and have been for several years) looking for someone who knows definitively how CIP is calculated and who decides who. It clearly does not make sense, and theres value in pointing it out. OFC i dont want money to "go away". Giving it out fairly or just spreding it among everyone as a yearly "Christmas bonus" type thing would be a lot better than giving it out corruptly. You are conflating another thread about unfair traffic count. This thread is about CIP.

Arguing that we should just be quiet and shhhh about something that may or may not be right or good... is like FLMs selectively applying the contract because it doesnt work for ____ facility, or they dont agree with it. Thats road leads to hell
 
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Josephml21

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ROC is a good one to point out. No facility around them gets it, and they aren't hard to staff or in a high cost of living area. BUF, SYR, ELM, BGM, ALB, ERI, CLE, YNG, ZOB, ZBW, AVP, PIT, MDT.... lol you can literally keep widening the circle of facilities around ROC and none of them have ever got CIP. Something crooked and wrong w CIP.
Once upon a time I worked in ASE and was greatful for cip... It made sense for us to get it, our locality was RUS.

Then I was in the PHX area and I was making good pay with good locality and lived comfortably on 7 pay. When I went to Vegas where the cost of living went up but the locality was RUS at the time I was confused about how locality rates were figured.

I'm now in PIT and again I think I make good money with a "fair" locality rate. The cost of living is pretty cheap in PIT.

It's my opinion that if locality rates would just get adjusted accordingly CIP wouldn't even be needed or wouldn't run out ¾ of the way through the year because we could give it to those that need it most.

Locality rates affect more than just us atc guys and gals and are set by OPM I believe so getting them fixed is probably a pipe dream.
 

DankVectorz

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Once upon a time I worked in ASE and was greatful for cip... It made sense for us to get it, our locality was RUS.

Then I was in the PHX area and I was making good pay with good locality and lived comfortably on 7 pay. When I went to Vegas where the cost of living went up but the locality was RUS at the time I was confused about how locality rates were figured.

I'm now in PIT and again I think I make good money with a "fair" locality rate. The cost of living is pretty cheap in PIT.

It's my opinion that if locality rates would just get adjusted accordingly CIP wouldn't even be needed or wouldn't run out ¾ of the way through the year because we could give it to those that need it most.

Locality rates affect more than just us atc guys and gals and are set by OPM I believe so getting them fixed is probably a pipe dream.
You’re making the mistake of comparing locality with an areas cost of living. That is not what it is based off. It is based on wages in the civilian sector in that locality. Now yes, usually it happens that where it is expensive people make higher wages, but not always. ASE for example. Stupid high cost of living, but because of rich people that don’t work there. The average worker in Aspen isn’t making a lot, but that’s what is being used to calculate locality.

Same reason why Houston’s locality is so high but cost of living is fairly cheap (compared to many other places). With the oil industry there wages are high.
 

Move78

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We were told we our hard to staff /high cost of living facility couldn’t be considered because that would mean taking it from another facility.

Also told we couldn’t be considered hard to staff because academy grads can be sent there.

The 💩 flowed freely that day.
The 30 mil is 0 sum yes. Its possible the union doesn't want to pursue adjusting CIP because the end game may result in a net loss. Or that presenting it up for negotiation will create a bargaining chip for the agency as opposed to the union. I don't know I'm just guessing here.
 

Josephml21

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You’re making the mistake of comparing locality with an areas cost of living. That is not what it is based off. It is based on wages in the civilian sector in that locality. Now yes, usually it happens that where it is expensive people make higher wages, but not always. ASE for example. Stupid high cost of living, but because of rich people that don’t work there. The average worker in Aspen isn’t making a lot, but that’s what is being used to calculate locality.

Same reason why Houston’s locality is so high but cost of living is fairly cheap (compared to many other places). With the oil industry there wages are high.
That's what I was trying to say in a long, confusing roundabout way. If locality was "fixed" and reflected cost of living we wouldn't have these issues.

Being based off of local wages doesn't do shit to help anyone, like you said ASE and HOU being examples.

If it was truly based off what it costs to live somewhere I'd think you'd find the system would work better.
 
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