Washing out vs Withdrawing from training

CWATC

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Ok I know this is a bit off the topic discussed here, but I was injured at work and have been on OWCP benefits the entire time. I am trying to come back under the reinstatement process because I was separated by the FAA but NOT separated by the government. I simply changed hands from the FAA to the DOL. I was on the terminal side (2 CTO's) and all. I unfortunately, cannot find a terminal facility (where I would like to be) well versed enough in this new program to consider hiring me. I have found a Center that is submitting my package to the region and wants to give me a shot.

1) I made CPC at my first facility and was in the middle of training at my second facility when injured. Does my not being able to complete training count as a training failure or withdrawal? I did not fail or withdraw, I just simply became medically DQ'ed because of my injury.

2) If I get on with the Center do you think I'll have to go to the Academy or just straight to the facility for level 1 training? If I do go to the Academy, do you think it will be job jeopardy? FYI even though I'm on the DOL roles my salary is a charge back to the FAA (so the FAA is still paying all of my income and benefits)

Just curious, if I can pass the medical part, what I might be looking at.
 

MJ

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Ok I know this is a bit off the topic discussed here, but I was injured at work and have been on OWCP benefits the entire time. I am trying to come back under the reinstatement process because I was separated by the FAA but NOT separated by the government. I simply changed hands from the FAA to the DOL. I was on the terminal side (2 CTO's) and all. I unfortunately, cannot find a terminal facility (where I would like to be) well versed enough in this new program to consider hiring me. I have found a Center that is submitting my package to the region and wants to give me a shot.

1) I made CPC at my first facility and was in the middle of training at my second facility when injured. Does my not being able to complete training count as a training failure or withdrawal? I did not fail or withdraw, I just simply became medically DQ'ed because of my injury.

2) If I get on with the Center do you think I'll have to go to the Academy or just straight to the facility for level 1 training? If I do go to the Academy, do you think it will be job jeopardy? FYI even though I'm on the DOL roles my salary is a charge back to the FAA (so the FAA is still paying all of my income and benefits)

Just curious, if I can pass the medical part, what I might be looking at.
I don't think you have job jeopardy. Once a CPC, you never lose that status.
The training failure part, no idea. I wouldn't think that it would be considered a failure, or even any of that it would carry over, but 100% speculation. I can't think of anything that addresses it. Maybe the NEST SOP?
 

CWATC

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Reading the 3120.4P.... It doesn't appear I'll have to go to the academy. NATCA says upon my return, I will be reinstated as if I never left. So my time counts towards retirement not bue time but still counts toward retirement. Pay raises I missed get calculated in to my pay. So I wonder how seniority works, started in spring 2008 separated late fall 2015, how do they put in the gap? I also still have the 2008 FERS deduction not the new deductions. So it looks pretty positive.
 

Stinger

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Guy withdrew from training at my facility and was retained. He said they only offered a certain amount of pass/pass terminal classes and he had the choice to either risk it and go to a pass/fail one with new hires or wait until a pass/pass class got filled with washouts/withdrawals. I find that interesting. He goes to OKC for a pass/pass class sometime in Feb/March I believe.
I've never heard of that before. As far as I know every initial enroute failure will be pass/pass at the academy for tower.
 

HenryTheAce

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I've never heard of that before. As far as I know every initial enroute failure will be pass/pass at the academy for tower.

That’s what I thought, he was saying it was different for him though because he didn’t “washout”. He quit, showed up to work one day and said I’m done, he was only D2. First facility out of the academy for him.
 

SFGiants10

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Messages
24
The facility list and cases are reviewed by the earliest termination date regardless if you withdraw or wash.

Follow up question to that. Do ATM's give different recommendations based on your action of withdrawing or just sticking out training till the end? For example, she withdrew so I will only recommend her current facility and below or she stuck out training so I will recommend level 9 and below when her last facility was a level 8 based on the progress she has shown at this level 12

How about the NEST committee? Do they give different recommendations when it comes to the type of list based on withdrawing or sticking out training? Use the same example above in the post
 

Move78

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The facility list and cases are reviewed by the earliest termination date regardless if you withdraw or wash.

Follow up question to that. Do ATM's give different recommendations based on your action of withdrawing or just sticking out training till the end? For example, she withdrew so I will only recommend her current facility and below or she stuck out training so I will recommend level 9 and below when her last facility was a level 8 based on the progress she has shown at this level 12

How about the NEST committee? Do they give different recommendations when it comes to the type of list based on withdrawing or sticking out training? Use the same example above in the post
For Devs it's a big difference. Withdraw and your list is tiny and garbage. For CPC-IT I'm not sure. You can withdraw and go back to your previous facility via "FastTrack" and skip the NEST if it's less than 100% proj staffing. Maybe @breakaway2000 can clarify on the 2 lists for CPC-IT
 

MS44

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Is it possible for a CPC-IT who withdraws/washes out to receive a NEST list and then invoke their return rights if they don't like the list?
 

Homsar

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Is it possible for a CPC-IT who withdraws/washes out to receive a NEST list and then invoke their return rights if they don't like the list?

Not really. You get the option to do either or when you withdraw/wash out, but your previously facility *should* be on your NEST list when you receive it.
 

SFGiants10

Member
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For Devs it's a big difference. Withdraw and your list is tiny and garbage. For CPC-IT I'm not sure. You can withdraw and go back to your previous facility via "FastTrack" and skip the NEST if it's less than 100% proj staffing. Maybe @breakaway2000 can clarify on the 2 lists for CPC-IT


I guess I am opening pandoras box here. I am asking on behalf of some CPC-IT's. If the list given and determined by the NEST is going to be the same (let's say level 8 and below for someone who previously certified at a level 8, regardless of withdrawing or washing, you might as well withdraw to be able to get first dibs since its based on earliest termination date.

However if sticking out training gives a better recommendation to be offered a higher level list (lets say level 9 and below when previous certification was at a level eight) than then it might be the better option.

Does an ATM (in this case at a level 12) recommend you for a higher level list than that of your previously certified facility because they see you stuck out training and have shown enough progress to make it a higher level than your last facility or it doesnt matter? How about the NEST do they see that you stuck out training rather than just withdraw and give you a higher level list?
 
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HenryTheAce

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I was told by our FACREP the highest facility you will receive is one you previously certified at. So if you certified at a level 8.... washed out of a 12, the highest levels you’d be offered in the NEST are level 8’s and below, regardless of how long you trained or how well you did. Of course I have no written proof of this and my FACREP could be wrong.
 

Move78

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I was told by our FACREP the highest facility you will receive is one you previously certified at. So if you certified at a level 8.... washed out of a 12, the highest levels you’d be offered in the NEST are level 8’s and below, regardless of how long you trained or how well you did. Of course I have no written proof of this and my FACREP could be wrong.
There was a guy at the SoCal convention that was certified at a 10 washed from a 12 and wasn't even given 10s in NEST.
 

MJ

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I guess I am opening pandoras box here. I am asking on behalf of some CPC-IT's. If the list given and determined by the NEST is going to be the same (let's say level 8 and below for someone who previously certified at a level 8, regardless of withdrawing or washing, you might as well withdraw to be able to get first dibs since its based on earliest termination date.

However if sticking out training gives a better recommendation to be offered a higher level list (lets say level 9 and below when previous certification was at a level eight) than then it might be the better option.

Does an ATM (in this case at a level 12) recommend you for a higher level list than that of your previously certified facility because they see you stuck out training and have shown enough progress to make it a higher level than your last facility or it doesnt matter? How about the NEST do they see that you stuck out training rather than just withdraw and give you a higher level list?
Edit: yup.
 

SFGiants10

Member
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24
You can't wash up levels.

So withdrawing is the better option so you can get first dibs because regardless of your progress at the higher level its always going to be the level of your previously certified facility and below?

Anyone that went to the NEST who wants to share information got offered a facility on their list thats higher than the level they previously certified at?
 

Move78

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So withdrawing is the better option so you can get first dibs because regardless of your progress at the higher level its always going to be the level of your previously certified facility and below?

Anyone that went to the NEST who wants to share information got offered a facility on their list thats higher than the level they previously certified at?
I'm not sure how you would know for certain if you're nailing the timing correctly. The do NEST like once a month or every other other month? I mean you could withdraw and be the at the tail end of a group? Also not everyone's getting the same NEST lists so I'm not sure your pathway of logic is really applicable. Just spitballing though.
 

Move78

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You'd also have to get solid verification that CPC-ITs don't get totally boned for withdrawing the way Devs do.
 

breakaway2000

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I'll echo @Omegahare 's sentiments and try to seek more clarity on the list that CPC-IT withdrawals receive.

The NEST placement SOP simply states...
"Developmental withdrawals from training will be provided a list of up to five facilities after CPC-IT's and Developmentals who were unsuccessful in training are placed and will follow the same process outlined in section 1.4.1-1.8"

Now, I believe that means all CPC-IT's are included in the same way, but it's not crystal clear.

Is it possible for a CPC-IT who withdraws/washes out to receive a NEST list and then invoke their return rights if they don't like the list?
Section 1.4 of the NEST Placement SOP...
"NOTE CPC-ITs will be offered their previous facility if the projected CPC to target is less then 100% based on the current Priority Placement Tool national average. The employee has the option to select that facility OR include that facility with the ranking list that is provided to them."
As the NEST SOP came out prior to the new streamlining of return rights, I'd also seek clarification prior to turning down return rights to make sure your previous facility would be included on your list.

For @SFGiants10 's original question. I have around 4 years of data. In those 4 years, it breaks down like this...

78 CPC-IT's withdrew from training...

6 out of 78 - made it to a higher level facility then they had previously certified at
57 out of 78 - made it to the same level facility they had previously certified at
15 out of 78 - made it to a lower level facility then they had previously certified at

Overall Data

340 CPC-IT Training Failures

50 out of 340 - made it to a higher level facility then they had previously certified at
213 out of 340 - made it to the same level facility they had previously certified at
77 out of 340 - made it to a lower level facility then they had previously certified at
 
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