Washing out vs Withdrawing from training

GulfBravoPapa

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The NEST placement SOP simply states...
"Developmental withdrawals from training will be provided a list of up to five facilities after CPC-IT's and Developmentals who were unsuccessful in training are placed and will follow the same process outlined in section 1.4.1-1.8"

I take this paragraph to mean that anyone withdrawing from training will go to the back of the line... Behind CPC-IT and developmentals who were unsuccessful (i.e. training failure)

Hmmm that is formatted strangely but I can't figure out how to fix it (I got you - breakaway)
 
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SFGiants10

Member
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24
I'll echo @Omegahare 's sentiments and try to seek more clarity on the list that CPC-IT withdrawals receive.

The NEST placement SOP simply states...
"Developmental withdrawals from training will be provided a list of up to five facilities after CPC-IT's and Developmentals who were unsuccessful in training are placed and will follow the same process outlined in section 1.4.1-1.8"

Now, I believe that means all CPC-IT's are included in the same way, but it's not crystal clear.


Section 1.4 of the NEST Placement SOP...
"NOTE CPC-ITs will be offered their previous facility if the projected CPC to target is less then 100% based on the current Priority Placement Tool national average. The employee has the option to select that facility OR include that facility with the ranking list that is provided to them."
As the NEST SOP came out prior to the new streamlining of return rights, I'd also seek clarification prior to turning down return rights to make sure your previous facility would be included on your list.

For @SFGiants10 's original question. I have around 4 years of data. In those 4 years, it breaks down like this...

78 CPC-IT's withdrew from training...

6 out of 78 - made it to a higher level facility then they had previously certified at
57 out of 78 - made it to the same level facility they had previously certified at
15 out of 78 - made it to a lower level facility then they had previously certified at

Overall Data

340 CPC-IT Training Failures

50 out of 340 - made it to a higher level facility then they had previously certified at
213 out of 340 - made it to the same level facility they had previously certified at
77 out of 340 - made it to a lower level facility then they had previously certified at

How you get this information lol. You are awesome!

So it does exist of getting a higher level facility on your list than the level you previously certified. I mean is it that unrealistic to have a level 6 and below tower list mean if you went from a level 5 tower to a level 10 tower and washed out.

My question now is who influences that determination the most? The ATM or the NEST? Does the NEST follows the ATM recommendation a lot of the time or makes their own determination?
 

breakaway2000

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How you get this information lol. You are awesome!

So it does exist of getting a higher level facility on your list than the level you previously certified. I mean is it that unrealistic to have a level 6 and below tower list mean if you went from a level 5 tower to a level 10 tower and washed out.

My question now is who influences that determination the most? The ATM or the NEST? Does the NEST follows the ATM recommendation a lot of the time or makes their own determination?
NEST has final decision. They never go above an ATM's recommendation, but they've gone below it numerous times. Simply put, this is not a black and white issue. You won't know what is on your list until you receive it.
 
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Does anyone know if you were to wash out of the academy on an OTS bid, then go and get your CTO and get the required 52 weeks experience required, could you get rehired through the prior experience bid?

Also, for those that have appealed the results of the training and gotten back in, how was that done? Many instructors told us about students coming back through the academy a second time...

Did they have their senator or house rep write or letter? Or how could they have gotten right back in? If anyone knows of anyone hot has done so I’m curious as to how?
 

DankVectorz

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Does anyone know if you were to wash out of the academy on an OTS bid, then go and get your CTO and get the required 52 weeks experience required, could you get rehired through the prior experience bid?

Also, for those that have appealed the results of the training and gotten back in, how was that done? Many instructors told us about students coming back through the academy a second time...

Did they have their senator or house rep write or letter? Or how could they have gotten right back in? If anyone knows of anyone hot has done so I’m curious as to how?

The failing the Academy being disqualifying for reapplying is new (either this year or last). So sure in the past they've seen people come through the Academy twice, but that was before failing the first time made them ineligible to reapply.
 
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The failing the Academy being disqualifying for reapplying is new (either this year or last). So sure in the past they've seen people come through the Academy twice, but that was before failing the first time made them ineligible to reapply.

What if you reapply in a different bid. As I said, you went to get your CTO and appropriate experience and then came back. Your resume would show the work you put in ad you still think hey would say no? I did that hard to believe
 

ajmezz

Trusted Contributor
Messages
586
I don’t remember the new ruling, but I think it’s along the lines of not being able to be hired on the same type of bid. So if that’s the case, you could be hired on a prior exp bid and report directly to a facility instead of going to the academy. Best bet is to call HR and ask. If nothing else, you could still work contract and if you lucked out, maybe snag a DOD spot somewhere.
 

DankVectorz

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I don’t remember the new ruling, but I think it’s along the lines of not being able to be hired on the same type of bid. So if that’s the case, you could be hired on a prior exp bid and report directly to a facility instead of going to the academy. Best bet is to call HR and ask. If nothing else, you could still work contract and if you lucked out, maybe snag a DOD spot somewhere.

I thought that was the old way? Wash out VRa, apply CTO etc
 

breakaway2000

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1,693
Does anyone know if you were to wash out of the academy on an OTS bid, then go and get your CTO and get the required 52 weeks experience required, could you get rehired through the prior experience bid?

Also, for those that have appealed the results of the training and gotten back in, how was that done? Many instructors told us about students coming back through the academy a second time...

Did they have their senator or house rep write or letter? Or how could they have gotten right back in? If anyone knows of anyone hot has done so I’m curious as to how?
Two separate hiring sources. If you fail the academy and are young enough you can to go a CTO school/ military, get the required 52 weeks experience and apply to a prior experience bid without any issue.
 

DankVectorz

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FAA
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N90 New York Tracon
Two separate hiring sources. If you fail the academy and are young enough you can to go a CTO school/ military, get the required 52 weeks experience and apply to a prior experience bid without any issue.

Incorrect. It says right on the prior experience bid that applicants who previously failed the Academy will not be considered. I just looked at both the prior experience and genpub bids. On the prior experience bid it says Academy wash outs will not be considered, on the genpub it says Academy washout can be used as a basis for non-selection. It's located in the "Qualifications" section of each bid as a bullet.
 

ajmezz

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If that’s true, that’s kind of dumb. Just a couple years ago a coworker failed out of enroute and was given a tol for a prior exp bid. Wonder why they would change it.
 

breakaway2000

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Incorrect. It says right on the prior experience bid that applicants who previously failed the Academy will not be considered. I just looked at both the prior experience and genpub bids. On the prior experience bid it says Academy wash outs will not be considered, on the genpub it says Academy washout can be used as a basis for non-selection. It's located in the "Qualifications" section of each bid as a bullet.
The verbiage is "
  • Applicants who are prior Academy and/or field training failure may not be considered
The verbiage was grandfathered in dating all the way back to the VRA bids, prior to applicants being sent directly to facilities (unless you were a RMC or prior CPC who could bypass the academy during that time). How it truly functions now is what I said above. Two separate hiring sources. You cannot be re-hired on the same source twice.

You can view the SOP's for the placement of each here...
Previous Experience Hire Placement
And
Referral List Selections
The referral list for the selection of academy trainees specifically says academy or field training failures will be removed. The prior experience one does not.
 
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futurepilot4u

Active Member
Messages
114
CPC-IT here. Certified at a tower only then transferred to a TRACON. Cert’d on 1 scope.

Is it still better to end training as a training failure instead of withdrawing from training?

Previous facility is fully staffed unfortunately.
 

FightingIrish2012

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CPC-IT here. Certified at a tower only then transferred to a TRACON. Cert’d on 1 scope.

Is it still better to end training as a training failure instead of withdrawing from training?

Previous facility is fully staffed unfortunately.
If you can't fast track back to your old facility, then yes, it is better to washout rather than withdrawal, even as a CPCIT you list will be better that way.
 

Spaceforce

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CPC-IT here. Certified at a tower only then transferred to a TRACON. Cert’d on 1 scope.

Is it still better to end training as a training failure instead of withdrawing from training?

Previous facility is fully staffed unfortunately.
Wash out is better. It gives you priority over withdrawals. Plus they take into account your positions certified on.
 

TowerDonkey

Member
Messages
42
Also, if you want to fast track back, try to stick it out as long as possible in training and use some annual/sick leave until hopefully your prior facility drops below the 100% projected. The day they do you can then withdraw.
 

Spaceforce

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Also, if you want to fast track back, try to stick it out as long as possible in training and use some annual/sick leave until hopefully your prior facility drops below the 100% projected. The day they do you can then withdraw.
To piggyback, the moment the facility goes below 100% you withdraw and it’s locked in that day vs when they run the panel.
 

futurepilot4u

Active Member
Messages
114
Would it be better to withdrawal in the sense that if you were not successful at the nest facility it would be a withdrawal then a training failure on your record, versus 2 training failures back to back?

I understand terminating training generates a better nest list compared to withdrawal, but would a withdrawal be better for career safety/longevity?
 

FightingIrish2012

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1,222
Would it be better to withdrawal in the sense that if you were not successful at the nest facility it would be a withdrawal then a training failure on your record, versus 2 training failures back to back?

I understand terminating training generates a better nest list compared to withdrawal, but would a withdrawal be better for career safety/longevity?
……F……U……C……..K……..No.
 
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