Cancellation of OT

GMX

Trusted Contributor
Messages
261
Article 38, Section 9 states Overtime shall not normally be canceled without 7 days notice.

Any knowledgeable contract people know how to define "normally"? I've had mine canceled within 24 hours or less.

I requested to cancel Annual Leave and our ATM canceled another person's OT 4 days out because of it, then pitted me against them making it "my fault" their OT was canceled. Therefore I told mgmt. to forget it and stayed on leave so the other co-worker didn't get screwed. The other controller tried to call mgmt. out on the 7 day thing but they just said it wasn't normal.

I feel like any time they cancel they can just be like "It's not normal so it's cool". We really don't get any OT so when promised the hours and then it's taken away it really hurts. If you promise something you should keep your word.
 

Tumulte

Member
Messages
4
Doesn't answer your question at all, but I don't see the issue with them canceling the OT as it's no longer needed. If they were to adhere to that rule hard and fast you could all put in for leave and then cancel it last minute to ensure you get some overtime. Maybe I'm off base here.
 
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PushingTin

Guest
Doesn't answer your question at all, but I don't see the issue with them canceling the OT as it's no longer needed. If they were to adhere to that rule hard and fast you could all put in for leave and then cancel it last minute to ensure you get some overtime. Maybe I'm off base here.


if the contract says shouldnt normally.... but they do it everytime someone cancels leave.... thats "normally". Fu*& em
 

liter a cola

Forum Sage
FAA
Messages
430
Facility
Command Center
Shall not normally... If it happens once it's meh... If it happens a second time within a year I would be raising hell...
 

Phillyman2633

Legendary Member
Messages
983
Yeah...we used to do that shit all the time at SJU. You'd wait until 6 days out and then cancel your leave so that they didnt change the OT calls. Everyone knew what was going on but management wasnt scummy about it. If the FAA has problems paying out for overtime, then they can ****** staff the agency to 100%, not my ****** problem. Sounds like you have a pushover FacRep who needs to grow a set and hold management to the contract. Get your RVP to provide clarification as to what constitutes "normally." I cant imagine a scenario in which management would need to "abnormally" cancel overtime inside of a week. Managers are ****** scumbags when it comes to paying out for OT, it ***** with their year-end bonus. It's also why our management doesnt hand out Cash/TOAs.
 
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CK

Trusted Contributor
FAA
Messages
117
Facility
AFW Alliance Tower
Mgmt is so ******* scummy. When you cancel your leave, you may chose to go back to your normally assigned shift, or another shift if yours is covered. Which it was via OT. I would have made them change my shift to the exact other side of where the OT was.
 
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spider

Forum Sage
Messages
383
Doesn't answer your question at all, but I don't see the issue with them canceling the OT as it's no longer needed. If they were to adhere to that rule hard and fast you could all put in for leave and then cancel it last minute to ensure you get some overtime. Maybe I'm off base here.

It's ridiculous. I can't find a copy of the contract right now but it also talks about shift changes. They can't tell you that they're changing your shift tomorrow from a 0700 to a 1200 for staffing. I've seen some people before argue that the cancellation of OT isn't a shift change. A change to your entire RDO is the most egregious shift change I can think of. They're going to run call-in procedures if their inside 7 days and they shouldn't cancel within 7 days either.
 

Phillyman2633

Legendary Member
Messages
983
Mgmt is so ****** scummy. When you cancel your leave, you may chose to go back to your normally assigned shift, or another shift if yours is covered. Which it was via OT. I would have made them change my shift to the exact other side of where the OT was.
I'm gonna take a wild guess and assume your facility isnt 100% staffed, so unless they literally had 100% coverage for that shift, you should be on your original shift. And "minimum staffing to approve annual" on any given shift is not "staffed to 100%."
 

CK

Trusted Contributor
FAA
Messages
117
Facility
AFW Alliance Tower
I'm gonna take a wild guess and assume your facility isnt 100% staffed, so unless they literally had 100% coverage for that shift, you should be on your original shift. And "minimum staffing to approve annual" on any given shift is not "staffed to 100%."
Nope. 100% 3 cpc it and a 4th in Jan. ;)

We're just a small fac and only 2 that take MIL leave. Hardly ever a real issue for us.
 

GMX

Trusted Contributor
Messages
261
Yeah it's the "not normally" part that is so broad. My 2 cancellations were for 2 different reasons, and them cancelling the other guy makes a 3rd different reason, so I don't really have them doing the same exact thing even twice in a row. But I love how they cancel the other's OT and pin it on me. So like I said, I told them forget it so that guy can get what he was promised and planned for earning.
 

rugbydog11

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Messages
515
Yeah it's the "not normally" part that is so broad. My 2 cancellations were for 2 different reasons, and them cancelling the other guy makes a 3rd different reason, so I don't really have them doing the same exact thing even twice in a row. But I love how they cancel the other's OT and pin it on me. So like I said, I told them forget it so that guy can get what he was promised and planned for earning.
If I cancel, I do it just over 24 hours in advance, so they can't deny the cancel... And that's usually way too short a notice to try and cancel someone's OT.
 

Phillyman2633

Legendary Member
Messages
983
My 2 cancellations were for 2 different reasons, and them cancelling the other guy makes a 3rd different reason, so I don't really have them doing the same exact thing even twice in a row.

I bid all of my accumulated and accrued leave every year because I never know what I actually want to take off, so I end up cancelling probably a solid 50% of my bid leave throughout the year (although I've been working a lot of credit to keep the leave as "free leave" so I've been cancelling less). You dont need an excuse to cancel your leave, it's a contractual right.

You can air your grievances all you want here on .65 but inaction with respect to holding your scumbag manager(s) to the contract means they'll keep walking all over you guys until your FacRep puts them in their place.
 

32andBelow

Legendary Member
Messages
6,747
Yeah it's the "not normally" part that is so broad. My 2 cancellations were for 2 different reasons, and them cancelling the other guy makes a 3rd different reason, so I don't really have them doing the same exact thing even twice in a row. But I love how they cancel the other's OT and pin it on me. So like I said, I told them forget it so that guy can get what he was promised and planned for earning.
Yah just turn it in the day before instead of 6 days before.
 

Ad1234

Trusted Contributor
Messages
373
What a bunch of degenerates after one cancelation? Cmon guys. Good luck with that whining, bang out next to a weekend or annual after that grevirnce and you’ve created a normal they can use against you for a sick leave letter which you’ll complain about also. If it’s once leave it alone, if it happens again pretty soon or it’s everytime then talk to your rep and get an answer. But one time as an isolated case should be considered reasonable. And don’t give me that crap it’s not their money or it affects their bonus you Clearly you have no freaking clue how taxes work And how managers do no get bonuses for that crap. That’s union koolaid you’re drinking.
 

GMX

Trusted Contributor
Messages
261
What a bunch of degenerates after one cancelation? Cmon guys. Good luck with that whining, bang out next to a weekend or annual after that grevirnce and you’ve created a normal they can use against you for a sick leave letter which you’ll complain about also. If it’s once leave it alone, if it happens again pretty soon or it’s everytime then talk to your rep and get an answer. But one time as an isolated case should be considered reasonable. And don’t give me that crap it’s not their money or it affects their bonus you Clearly you have no freaking clue how taxes work And how managers do no get bonuses for that crap. That’s union koolaid you’re drinking.


Well, with reading comprehension one would see my narrative involved three cancellations, not one. One of which was with about 24 hours notice and one with about 3 days. My actual question was if anyone had any experience with the definition of "not normally" as it seems to be quite open for interpretation and argument. The part of this that really gets me on the most recent one is how they cancelled someone else's OT and then pit me against him.

MGMT: Hey GMX, you can't cancel leave to a 6am but you can do a 630.
ME: OK fine put me in for 630am.
MGMT: OK. So, JimBob had OT at 630 so we're not going to do that now.
ME: Did you talk to him and he's cool with that?
MGMT: Of course he's not cool with that!
ME: Well then forget it. I'll stay on leave, I'm not going to do that to someone.

In the meantime JimBob is is texting me, upset he's losing OT and mgmt. is telling him "Sorry, GMX did this to you, not us".

Our rep is really new and is still learning stuff.
 

Dontbotherme

Forum Sage
Messages
792
If I cancel, I do it just over 24 hours in advance, so they can't deny the cancel... And that's usually way too short a notice to try and cancel someone's OT.
Yep, wait until the assigned OT person leaves work for their normal RDOs and then turn in the leave. That way, management can’t get in touch with said employee before they report back to work the OT. Leaving a message doesn’t count as communication.
 

Dontbotherme

Forum Sage
Messages
792
What a bunch of degenerates after one cancelation? Cmon guys. Good luck with that whining, bang out next to a weekend or annual after that grevirnce and you’ve created a normal they can use against you for a sick leave letter which you’ll complain about also. If it’s once leave it alone, if it happens again pretty soon or it’s everytime then talk to your rep and get an answer. But one time as an isolated case should be considered reasonable. And don’t give me that crap it’s not their money or it affects their bonus you Clearly you have no freaking clue how taxes work And how managers do no get bonuses for that crap. That’s union koolaid you’re drinking.
So explain to me how some of these big facility ATMs were/are getting bonuses in the tens of thousands of dollars? When the agency went to the Bush business model, they absolutely received bonuses based on a percentage of what they didn’t spend of their facility’s budget. Now, it is all grouped together in a district pot so you get small town ATM saying, “I don’t have any OT to backfill because Atlanta needs it.” Bull shit!
 

Ad1234

Trusted Contributor
Messages
373
I bid all of my accumulated and accrued leave every year because I never know what I actually want to take off, so I end up cancelling probably a solid 50% of my bid leave throughout the year (although I've been working a lot of credit to keep the leave as "free leave" so I've been cancelling less). You dont need an excuse to cancel your leave, it's a contractual right.

You can air your grievances all you want here on .65 but inaction with respect to holding your scumbag manager(s) to the contract means they'll keep walking all over you guys until your FacRep puts them in their place.

you bid them during the bid process? If so, that's against the contract. if not and you put in all those spot leave requests after the fact, then you are potentially screwing over your coworkers by holding those days hostage and blocking them from those days.

Yeah it's the "not normally" part that is so broad. My 2 cancellations were for 2 different reasons, and them cancelling the other guy makes a 3rd different reason, so I don't really have them doing the same exact thing even twice in a row. But I love how they cancel the other's OT and pin it on me. So like I said, I told them forget it so that guy can get what he was promised and planned for earning.


how far apart were these cases? inside of 24 hours, complete dick move. but if they get a hold of the employee why shouldn't they be able to , just because they are promised? scheduling at OT isn't a promise.

So explain to me how some of these big facility ATMs were/are getting bonuses in the tens of thousands of dollars? When the agency went to the Bush business model, they absolutely received bonuses based on a percentage of what they didn’t spend of their facility’s budget. Now, it is all grouped together in a district pot so you get small town ATM saying, “I don’t have any OT to backfill because Atlanta needs it.” Bull shit!

they get bonuses based on a percentage of their salary and how they are rated on their performance review. end of story. tens of thousands? You've seen the paystubs for these bonuses? under the bush business model? We are talking about over 12 years ago? really?

each facility is given a budget, its not grouped together. It may be initially but each facility based on BATS is determined the amount they are to spend. If they don't spend it and another facility needs it, yes managers gives it away. you've heard that manager say that because they do checks on the health of their overtime budget, if your staffing looks good and your usage rate is low they will take it from you, but each facility is given a specific number.

Yeah...we used to do that **** all the time at SJU. You'd wait until 6 days out and then cancel your leave so that they didnt change the OT calls. Everyone knew what was going on but management wasnt scummy about it. If the FAA has problems paying out for overtime, then they can ****** staff the agency to 100%, not my ****** problem. Sounds like you have a pushover FacRep who needs to grow a set and hold management to the contract. Get your RVP to provide clarification as to what constitutes "normally." I cant imagine a scenario in which management would need to "abnormally" cancel overtime inside of a week. Managers are ****** scumbags when it comes to paying out for OT, it ***** with their year-end bonus. It's also why our management doesnt hand out Cash/TOAs.


they don't hand out cash/toas because they aren't made aware by upper management that they are available and they are too lazy to inquire on their on, and why would they when the scenario you are describing above is despicable and just as scummy just for some extra scratch. there is your cash award. I'm not sorry about saying that, its just how I feel. if you think your facrep is strong for getting away with that, no you just had pushover management and no one paid attention.
 
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PushingTin

Guest
What a bunch of degenerates after one cancelation? Cmon guys. Good luck with that whining, bang out next to a weekend or annual after that grevirnce and you’ve created a normal they can use against you for a sick leave letter which you’ll complain about also.

And don’t give me that crap it’s not their money or it affects their bonus you Clearly you have no freaking clue how taxes work And how managers do no get bonuses for that crap. That’s union koolaid you’re drinking.

Wow. For anyone who calls me a troll, this guy is like HOLD MY BEER. Probably one of the most ignorant takes i've ever seen on this site... which makes me think it must be fake. Then again there are directions on a shampoo bottle for a reason!

p.s. Union Kool-aid is delicious. Even better w Vodka, Midori, & Amaretto
 
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