Cancellation of OT

Dontbotherme

Forum Sage
Messages
792
Ad1234 you find me a site that actually works for showing employee salaries and bonuses from 2010-2013 and I’ll show you what some of these managers got for bonuses. All the sites I can find now, only show data from 2015-2018, but that doesn’t mean it wasn’t published at one time. This business model idea came in during the early to mid 2000s and is still in place today with how the agency is setup. You ever worked at a small facility from say 2008 to now? Every time something is needed (OT especially), the reason you don’t get it is because the big facilities, in the district, need it. That’s the excuse you get from every small town ATM. That’s no bull shit and if you don’t believe it, I’m sorry but you’re living in a fantasy world. There are scummy practices when it comes to management within the agency. ATM bonuses for unspent money, “exceptional performance reviews” for supervisors that have every TRB trainee given more time due to piss poor documentation, deviations for supervisor slots when facilities can’t release controllers, et cetera. I’m sorry, but 90+% of management officials are lazy as shit!
 

Dontbotherme

Forum Sage
Messages
792
Just one presentation of these pay bonuses. I’m pretty sure $46K is in the tens of thousands for ATM bonuses... A lot of the times, that union Kool Aid is right...
 

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Ad1234

Trusted Contributor
Messages
373
Just one presentation of these pay bonuses. I’m pretty sure $46K is in the tens of thousands for ATM bonuses... A lot of the times, that union Kool Aid is right...


you found one example after asking me to find justification for your point. you said some crazy stuff and ask someone else to show proof? cmon. plus the 2nd example from a different year you found is 10 percent of what that one example is. I bet you that's a typo. find me multiple examples and I might be on board and that's from 2011, 8 years ago. that does not happen today if it ever did which I don't believe.

also, I have worked at small facilities. I have heard that stuff before. the managers you've heard that crap from are bad managers I agree. but not at every small tower. maybe in your experience, I'm not saying its better or worse but I hear different things from many different people. is training being accomplished? is leave being approved? they have given up their budget because they sell the fact they can get away with not using what they were given at the beginning of the fiscal. ask a manager what their overtime budget is and they should be able to tell you I they don't they are in some delusional world that says they cant. there is nothing that says they cant. if managers aren't using the overtime to staff the facility correctly than you have had bad fac reps who have not appropriately convinced anyone that they need those bodies to conduct the work of the facility, training, de briefs, or whatever and need those bodies for staffing. Instead let me guess those facreps sat on their hands and didn't complain to those managers much because employees breaks were fine, elms were done, training was completed. if that wasn't completed and they were using DEVs as staffing, then your facrep had zero accountability to rewrite the MOUs so that wouldn't happen, if the MOUs were written appropriately than management wouldn't have a choice and would have to assign the overtime. blame management all you want I'm with you when those managers are bad, but they do not get bonues for not using overtime and the local union is just as much to blame. show me proof. I bet you wont find it.

and the TRBs I agree that's a huge problem, but the workforce is just as much to blame, why do something if no one is watching? where is the union at those facilities? the DEV is the one responsible to keep track of their time, where are the trainers on writing reports? or teaching correctly? why leave it up to management when we all know they wont do the job correctly? why doesn't the workforce help those people out?
 

FightingIrish2012

Forum Sage
Messages
1,117
you found one example after asking me to find justification for your point. you said some crazy stuff and ask someone else to show proof? cmon. plus the 2nd example from a different year you found is 10 percent of what that one example is. I bet you that's a typo. find me multiple examples and I might be on board and that's from 2011, 8 years ago. that does not happen today if it ever did which I don't believe.

also, I have worked at small facilities. I have heard that stuff before. the managers you've heard that crap from are bad managers I agree. but not at every small tower. maybe in your experience, I'm not saying its better or worse but I hear different things from many different people. is training being accomplished? is leave being approved? they have given up their budget because they sell the fact they can get away with not using what they were given at the beginning of the fiscal. ask a manager what their overtime budget is and they should be able to tell you I they don't they are in some delusional world that says they cant. there is nothing that says they cant. if managers aren't using the overtime to staff the facility correctly than you have had bad fac reps who have not appropriately convinced anyone that they need those bodies to conduct the work of the facility, training, de briefs, or whatever and need those bodies for staffing. Instead let me guess those facreps sat on their hands and didn't complain to those managers much because employees breaks were fine, elms were done, training was completed. if that wasn't completed and they were using DEVs as staffing, then your facrep had zero accountability to rewrite the MOUs so that wouldn't happen, if the MOUs were written appropriately than management wouldn't have a choice and would have to assign the overtime. blame management all you want I'm with you when those managers are bad, but they do not get bonues for not using overtime and the local union is just as much to blame. show me proof. I bet you wont find it.

and the TRBs I agree that's a huge problem, but the workforce is just as much to blame, why do something if no one is watching? where is the union at those facilities? the DEV is the one responsible to keep track of their time, where are the trainers on writing reports? or teaching correctly? why leave it up to management when we all know they wont do the job correctly? why doesn't the workforce help those people out?
You are either a bitter 30 year old FLM or a guy who feels guilty for not serving in the military.
 

Phillyman2633

Legendary Member
Messages
983
they don't hand out cash/toas because they aren't made aware by upper management that they are available and they are too lazy to inquire on their on, and why would they when the scenario you are describing above is despicable and just as scummy just for some extra scratch. there is your cash award. I'm not sorry about saying that, its just how I feel. if you think your facrep is strong for getting away with that, no you just had pushover management and no one paid attention.

Lmaoooo who invited the Level 4 ATM with a Bachelor's Degree from Embry-Riddle Worldwide to this thread?
 
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PushingTin

Guest
Lmaoooo who invited the Level 4 ATM with a Bachelor's Degree from Embry-Riddle Worldwide to this thread?

He sounds like he really has his rules down & is ready to put the "degenerates" in their place. Maybe should transfer to PHL or N90 and beta test these methods and report back? :rofl::lol:


giphy.gif
 

gunf1ghter

Member
FAA
Messages
11
Facility
ZMA Miami Center
Sorry dude, one time doesn't constitute a violation of that. It happens every once in a while at our facility - meetings get cancelled within a week, OT gets cancelled. It would never hold up to an independent arbitrator.
 

TimShady

Trusted Contributor
Messages
76
Article 32 Watch Schedules and Shift Assignments, Section 6

“Changes with less than seven (7) days notice shall not be made for the purpose of avoiding payment of overtime, holiday, or other premium pay.”

Interpret that how you will.
 

FknGL

Member
Messages
3
Like a lot of the contract, that section is just vague enough you'll never grieve it successfully. I have tried. The agency will hang their hat on "not normally". YMMV
 

liter a cola

Forum Sage
FAA
Messages
430
Facility
Command Center
Like a lot of the contract, that section is just vague enough you'll never grieve it successfully. I have tried. The agency will hang their hat on "not normally". YMMV
And a good facrep would use that to their advantage. If "not normally" is hard to define then a "pattern" for sick leave abuse should be just as hard to prove.

When a OS says "no pattern is a pattern" then "not normally is normally".

Both of these issues deal with how often and the timing of something happening.
 
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PushingTin

Guest
And a good facrep would use that to their advantage. If "not normally" is hard to define then a "pattern" for sick leave abuse should be just as hard to prove.

When a OS says "no pattern is a pattern" then "not normally is normally".

Both of these issues deal with how often and the timing of something happening.

To me this is 100% the correct "Union way" to look at these things. It's very important for precedent and past practices that when suddenly they start cancelling OT, or railroading ppl with ridiculous shifts with less than 7 days notice, or SL letters out of nowhere because they were angry about a specific bang… A good facrep should go to the mat for all of these IMO. Its a slippery slope to hell to just allow that one person no one likes to get a SL letter for some ridiculous arbitrary reason like "He's an idiot he shouldn't have left his car in the parking lot and flown to ____ " , or "that guy is a troublemaker".

Mission creep ends in full on war and final defeat where your facility goes from "country club" to hellhole in possibly the span of one facrep term. Same with all of our working conditions. It is the wrong way to look at it that when someone takes Article 19 ("Snow" leave) to start calling them a scammer, or when someone self reports as fatigued to roll your eyes and MF the union for protecting the "bad apples". People SHOULD not be driving in hazardous weather, if theyre subjectively uncomfortable with it; and they sure as shit should not be working fatigued just because their coworkers are self righteous and are willing to work double quick turns or any other death schedule they're assigned. Don't think you won't be made a major example of if you fall asleep on your mid. When you have a month on the beach or are terminated, you will be wishing others had not turned basic work conditions like fatigue leave into a scarlet letter. In these ways we are our own worst enemy. These little internal peer pressures that shit all over our CBA rights. Like this stupid idea that when you are young you should pass breaks.
 

steakvendor

Member
Messages
92
I had scheduled OT for a swing shift next Thursday, was notified today (Thursday) that it was canceled. Is that enough time or did management violate the contract? 7 days
 

Mike Kilo

Legendary Member
Messages
2,395
I had scheduled OT for a swing shift next Thursday, was notified today (Thursday) that it was canceled. Is that enough time or did management violate the contract? 7 days
What a dream to have OT cancelled! But I’m pretty sure it’s a “shall not normally” be changed. Unless it’s a pattern probably have no leg to stand on, but I could be wrong.
 
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