Florida Surge

[TowerDonkey]

I meant specifically 15L, but yes

Not much you can do with a 2500 ft runway. KAP will land it all thru fall though

 

[Phanatical]

Anybody know how IFR overflights are counted/whats the formula for getting a count vs not?

E. Each transitional IFR/SVFR overflight (aircraft that exit center airspace at an altitude 4,000 feet or more different from the aircraft altitude entering the center area) is given a weight of 1.50.

F. Each overflight (non-transitional) is given a weight of 1.00.

 

[ajmezz]

E. Each transitional IFR/SVFR overflight (aircraft that exit center airspace at an altitude 4,000 feet or more different from the aircraft altitude entering the center area) is given a weight of 1.50.

F. Each overflight (non-transitional) is given a weight of 1.00.

So, can you or anyone else explain it in laymans terms on how IFR overflights are counted for towers? Does the a/c have to physically enter the towers airspace dimensions or does skirting right above it count? eg class D goes up to but not including 020, so 019, and approach puts a/c on final for the adjacent fac at 020 right over/next to your downwind. Should we get a count for that? Bc at that point we basically have to protect that side to make sure nobody climbs up although we own up to 019..

 

[J8ke]

MSP and DTW to name two

BOS and SDF for 2 more

RWY 05/23 CLSD EXC TAX. 01 MAY 19:30 2022 UNTIL PERM. CREATED: 01 MAY 19:28 2022
This is the NOTAM for CLT's crossing Runway.

DTW doesn't have anything like this. SDF and MSP have NOTAMs stating Prior Permission is required to use their crossing runways.

MSP recently a very blustery day requiring them to use 22 primarily. @Mike Kilo

But as previously stated, DTW and MSP are likely getting downgraded. And yeah SDF almost never uses their crossing runway, but it's not like SDF is some scamming dream facility we should all be jealous of. They work hella mids and make sure your UPS package gets delivered on time.

When you run 6 VFRs in the pattern and work in/out 10 itinerant VFRs between then, and the only things you have to say to an IFR departure are “Cleared for takeoff” and “contact departure” after issuing many instructions to the many VFRs to keep them out of the IFRs way, I think the VFRs are absolutely receiving “more ATC service” than the IFRs ?

I've worked at a VFR Tower and at a Core 30.

At a VFR tower you can have an 60 op hour with 4 skyhawks in the pattern the whole hour. FD/CD twiddles their thumbs. GC taxis the four out to the runway and back to their hanger. LC clears them for t/g. CIC looks at USAJOBS.

vs

Core 30 airport. Granted, some Core 30s have simpler operations but many don't.
30 IFR arrivals. 30 IFR departures. There is automation but FD/CD must ensure all departures have their clearance, are set up to adhere to miles in trail, release times, EDCTs, Ground Stops, etc. Ground must taxi 60 separate aircraft, deal with aircraft without gates or find a place to stash aircraft with TMI delays, split departure fixes, cross active runways, maintenance repositions, etc. LC at a core 30 isn't just using same runway separation but must use radar separation, tower-applied and pilot-applied visual separation for every aircraft. Must radar identify and verify altitude of aircraft/helos operating in the class B. CIC still looking at USAJOBS.

SO yeah. I know you can bust your ass off working LC at a busy VFR tower. I've been there. There's little to no structure. Everyone checks in at once from all directions.
But I don't buy that VFRs are receiving more ATC service than the IFRs.

 

[Homsar]

I've worked at a VFR Tower and at a Core 30.

At a VFR tower you can have an 60 op hour with 4 skyhawks in the pattern the whole hour. FD/CD twiddles their thumbs. GC taxis the four out to the runway and back to their hanger. LC clears them for t/g. CIC looks at USAJOBS.

vs

Core 30 airport. Granted, some Core 30s have simpler operations but many don't.
30 IFR arrivals. 30 IFR departures. There is automation but FD/CD must ensure all departures have their clearance, are set up to adhere to miles in trail, release times, EDCTs, Ground Stops, etc. Ground must taxi 60 separate aircraft, deal with aircraft without gates or find a place to stash aircraft with TMI delays, split departure fixes, cross active runways, maintenance repositions, etc. LC at a core 30 isn't just using same runway separation but must use radar separation, tower-applied and pilot-applied visual separation for every aircraft. Must radar identify and verify altitude of aircraft/helos operating in the class B. CIC still looking at USAJOBS.

SO yeah. I know you can bust your ass off working LC at a busy VFR tower. I've been there. There's little to no structure. Everyone checks in at once from all directions.
But I don't buy that VFRs are receiving more ATC service than the IFRs.

If your idea of a busy hour that requires giving VFR a ton of ATC services is one having 60 ops, then no, I don't think you've been there 60 is a slow hour for us, 90-100 is typical for most of the day and we frequently have 1-3 130+ hours a day.

 

[ClearanceClarence]

Aren’t military ops weighted less than other IFR traffics as well? That’s BS too - it obviously depends on the mission/airspace, but generally, military aircraft draw a much higher controller workload than an air carrier. But supposedly they’re counted as less.

 

[GulfBravoPapa]

Aren’t military ops weighted less than other IFR traffics as well? That’s BS too - it obviously depends on the mission/airspace, but generally, military aircraft draw a much higher controller workload than an air carrier. But supposedly they’re counted as less.

I don't get why anyone is weighted less..... a plane is a plane. You can have an emergency with one plane. You can work your tail off with one plane, VFR or IFR. The whole formula is questionable. When's ABACUS supposed to be implemented? *crickets*

 

[Soul_Controller]

Meh. Traffic count is really complex. There's a lot of either-or shit. It's not a raw count. It's why consolidation is shitty. You can gain a scope and fuck around and get a lower count.

But for the most part, the screw job that vfr towers get is a lot less people think and is balanced out by the fact 4 and 5 towers and all up/downs are basically stealing.

 

[AB19]

When your military traffic at a “satellite” airport gets counted as like an 8th of an air carrier ???

 

[rhombus]

If your idea of a busy hour that requires giving VFR a ton of ATC services is one having 60 ops, then no, I don't think you've been there 60 is a slow hour for us, 90-100 is typical for most of the day and we frequently have 1-3 130+ hours a day.

I think you missed the point of his post. He wasn’t saying 60 was a busy hour, he was just using that as an arbitrary number and to show how you can easily rack up the count with touch and goes and 3000 and airborne.

From your previous post it seems that your idea of ATC services is what’s provided by local control. That might be true at VFR towers where LC is an absolute beast but every other position is a joke. Over the lifespan of an IFR aircraft they are absolutely receiving more tower ATC services. Clearance delivery making sure the routing and altitude are correct, Flight Data making sure appropriate strip marking is made, ground taxiing out and making sure they meet EDCTs, DSP times and in trail restrictions, calling the center for APREQ times, sending them back to clearance delivery when the center gives them a reroute, finding a spot to park them while they contact dispatch and run their numbers for the new route, sequence them when they’re good to go, find a new parking spot for them when their departure fix gets stopped, make sure they have the new departure frequency and climb out instructions, provide visual and radar separation and wake turbulence separation, issue RVR, etc etc etc plus all of the basic service you would provide to a VFR aircraft

 

[SporadicVectors]

ZJX and ZMA is working Level 12+ easy. I can’t speak for ZJX but ZMA was #2 for volume last year and we average 7K ops a day easy… and we are still a level 11. It’s a complete joke and a slap in the face by the union and FAA. Everyone’s burned out from being overworked and underpaid and rightfully so. MIA is level 12 yet ZMA is 11… how does that even fly? ??‍♂️

Comparing apples to oranges here. Working the terminal environment is not enroute. Not saying it shouldn’t be a 12.

 

[HaZarDouZ]

Comparing apples to oranges here. Working the terminal environment is not enroute. Not saying it shouldn’t be a 12.

I get you trust me I do I worked tower for many years in the military but they literally just stack everyone to us and we do the majority of the work. With the amount of planes we feed each other and being #3 in volume in the NAS I don’t understand how ZMA could still be a level 11. This new Avicus traffic count system can’t come soon enough. A lot of facilities are going to get exposed.

I'm pretty sure it's because it's not just based on numbers but additional factors like complexity

Absolutely but I can guarantee you we are just as complex if not more. I can’t talk for other areas in the building but at least for mine.

 

[Homsar]

I think you missed the point of his post. He wasn’t saying 60 was a busy hour, he was just using that as an arbitrary number and to show how you can easily rack up the count with touch and goes and 3000 and airborne.

From your previous post it seems that your idea of ATC services is what’s provided by local control. That might be true at VFR towers where LC is an absolute beast but every other position is a joke. Over the lifespan of an IFR aircraft they are absolutely receiving more tower ATC services. Clearance delivery making sure the routing and altitude are correct, Flight Data making sure appropriate strip marking is made, ground taxiing out and making sure they meet EDCTs, DSP times and in trail restrictions, calling the center for APREQ times, sending them back to clearance delivery when the center gives them a reroute, finding a spot to park them while they contact dispatch and run their numbers for the new route, sequence them when they’re good to go, find a new parking spot for them when their departure fix gets stopped, make sure they have the new departure frequency and climb out instructions, provide visual and radar separation and wake turbulence separation, issue RVR, etc etc etc plus all of the basic service you would provide to a VFR aircraft

I’m confused as to why you and that poster automatically assume those things don’t happen with GC at our place too. Yes, we don’t get air carriers re-running numbers, but GC here constantly has to deal with issuing re-routes, EDCTs, sequencing IFRs amid a sea of VFRs to meet departure times, stripmarking, etc. Oh, and don’t forget to manually cut an ATIS while doing all of this, because we don’t have D-ATIS, we don’t have staffing for a stand-alone CIC when a Supe isn’t up, and we never staff CD/FD as a separate position.

I’ve worked at a Core 30 tower too, and while the sequencing here is a far cry from splitting SIDs to get visual on each departure, it’s not the stereotype of “GC sits there and does nothing while LC gets hammered.” You have to do mostly the same stuff as GC at a Core 30 with a lot less taxiway to play around with, so it creates some complex situations that you wouldn’t see at an airport with a more robust layout.

 

[Move78]

I get you trust me I do I worked tower for many years in the military but they literally just stack everyone to us and we do the majority of the work. With the amount of planes we feed each other and being #3 in volume in the NAS I don’t understand how ZMA could still be a level 11. This new Avicus traffic count system can’t come soon enough. A lot of facilities are going to get exposed.

Because they were an 11 in 2008 and it’s been frozen in time

 

[rhombus]

I’m confused as to why you and that poster automatically assume those things don’t happen with GC at our place too. Yes, we don’t get air carriers re-running numbers, but GC here constantly has to deal with issuing re-routes, EDCTs, sequencing IFRs amid a sea of VFRs to meet departure times, stripmarking, etc. Oh, and don’t forget to manually cut an ATIS while doing all of this, because we don’t have D-ATIS, we don’t have staffing for a stand-alone CIC when a Supe isn’t up, and we never staff CD/FD as a separate position.

I’ve worked at a Core 30 tower too, and while the sequencing here is a far cry from splitting SIDs to get visual on each departure, it’s not the stereotype of “GC sits there and does nothing while LC gets hammered.” You have to do mostly the same stuff as GC at a Core 30 with a lot less taxiway to play around with, so it creates some complex situations that you wouldn’t see at an airport with a more robust layout.

Sorry I wasn’t trying to say that one facility is more difficult than another, I was just laying out the amount of different services an IFR aircraft receives and justifying the 1.5 count versus the 1 count for eastbound Cessna or a helicopter beating up the pattern

 

[Mike Kilo]

The reason VFR aircraft don’t count as much is because y’all be padding those hourly traffic counts! Just because the C172 bounced while doing a stop and go doesn’t mean it’s four local operations people…..

 

[TushingPin]

The only thing I've taken from this thread is that every single facility should be a 13, and we all work the craziest operations, vfr tower to enroute.

 

[GulfCharlie]

The reason VFR aircraft don’t count as much is because y’all be padding those hourly traffic counts! Just because the C172 bounced while doing a stop and go doesn’t mean it’s four local operations people…..

What if he bounces? Arrival/Departure per bounce

 

[SporadicVectors]

I get you trust me I do I worked tower for many years in the military but they literally just stack everyone to us and we do the majority of the work. With the amount of planes we feed each other and being #3 in volume in the NAS I don’t understand how ZMA could still be a level 11. This new Avicus traffic count system can’t come soon enough. A lot of facilities are going to get exposed.

Definitely do more work than a tower. As for an approach control, idk. There are so many factors. I don’t think a high sector in a center has any business comparing themselves to a high level approach control. You start talking low sectors and many could definitely make the argument.

 

[Pancakepapa]

What if he bounces? Arrival/Departure per bounce

I might be able to take some tail draggers in the pattern then. Those fuckers bounce at least 4 times min.