Handoffs and How Far Is Too Far

vectorwagon

Trusted Contributor
Messages
176
Maybe it's just us but I'm certain that you can't start an automated handoff to an adjacent facility if the aircraft is more than 50 miles from the boundary of the facility. It just flashes "IF".

Having to amend altitudes to flash guys is idiotic. Or amending route. I should be able to flash an aircraft to literally any of my neighboring facilities.
Why the hell would you want to initiate a handoff 50 fucking miles away!?!?
 

N737ER

Member
I ♥ pointSixtyFive
Messages
44
Why the hell would you want to initiate a handoff 50 fucking miles away!?!?

As someone who's worked at two Zs, I've noticed Tracons *LOVE* flashing airplanes coming to me practically as soon as they get them. In fact last summer I had a departure aircraft flashed at me that didn't even have altitude in the datablock or a primary target becuase he was so low. Another day, the same Tracon sector wanted to do a manual handoff on a guy over 50mi from my boundary who wasn't even within my scope range when they called.

To be fair [to the Tracons], there are people in my Z that flash guys 100mi (and 15min) from the boundary, and others who can't even wait for the airplane to leave my airspace before they flash to the next controller, whose boundary is 80mi away from mine.
 

sizziano

Trusted Contributor
Messages
426
As someone who's worked at two Zs, I've noticed Tracons *LOVE* flashing airplanes coming to me practically as soon as they get them. In fact last summer I had a departure aircraft flashed at me that didn't even have altitude in the datablock or a primary target becuase he was so low. Another day, the same Tracon sector wanted to do a manual handoff on a guy over 50mi from my boundary who wasn't even within my scope range when they called.

To be fair [to the Tracons], there are people in my Z that flash guys 100mi (and 15min) from the boundary, and others who can't even wait for the airplane to leave my airspace before they flash to the next controller, whose boundary is 80mi away from mine.

As someone who works at a TRACON I flash guys to the Z ASAP otherwise they might not take it in time.
 

Soham

Trusted Contributor
Messages
86
Why the hell would you want to initiate a handoff 50 fucking miles away!?!?

Take a handoff, give a handoff. If I know where the guy is going why wouldn't I? Why wait until I might actually be swamped to start flashing guys at the boundary when I could have done it during dead time. I wait on VFR handoffs because they might deviate or just cancel but IFR are always the same route unless MEDEVAC or emergency.
 

AnyTrafficPleaseAdvise

Trusted Contributor
Messages
246
As someone who's worked at two Zs, I've noticed Tracons *LOVE* flashing airplanes coming to me practically as soon as they get them. In fact last summer I had a departure aircraft flashed at me that didn't even have altitude in the datablock or a primary target becuase he was so low. Another day, the same Tracon sector wanted to do a manual handoff on a guy over 50mi from my boundary who wasn't even within my scope range when they called.

To be fair [to the Tracons], there are people in my Z that flash guys 100mi (and 15min) from the boundary, and others who can't even wait for the airplane to leave my airspace before they flash to the next controller, whose boundary is 80mi away from mine.
When they do that, I like to make them follow the P65 and APREQ changes to the data block when they inevitably request an altitude or route change after being flashed 100 miles away.
By they I mean other Center controllers
 

Move78

Forum Sage
Messages
1,048
As someone who works at a TRACON I flash guys to the Z ASAP otherwise they might not take it in time.
If the Z sector/sector combo is over the top and not just lateral then this is the best way to get someone to not take it in time and to ruin your relationship with that facility. Just let it auto flash.
 
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vectorwagon

Trusted Contributor
Messages
176
Take a handoff, give a handoff. If I know where the guy is going why wouldn't I? Why wait until I might actually be swamped to start flashing guys at the boundary when I could have done it during dead time. I wait on VFR handoffs because they might deviate or just cancel but IFR are always the same route unless MEDEVAC or emergency.
Sounds like you need to learn how to scan and actually evaluate your traffic/datablocks instead of this mindless take a handoff-make a handoff bullshit. Worst training technique ever in the new era of controllers. Most facilities have enabled the adaptation for auto-flash anyway - which is a testament to many people’s inability to scan - who wants to watch the flash that long?! It’s stupid.
 

Dousand24

Active Member
Messages
133
As someone who's worked at two Zs, I've noticed Tracons *LOVE* flashing airplanes coming to me practically as soon as they get them. In fact last summer I had a departure aircraft flashed at me that didn't even have altitude in the datablock or a primary target becuase he was so low. Another day, the same Tracon sector wanted to do a manual handoff on a guy over 50mi from my boundary who wasn't even within my scope range when they called.

To be fair [to the Tracons], there are people in my Z that flash guys 100mi (and 15min) from the boundary, and others who can't even wait for the airplane to leave my airspace before they flash to the next controller, whose boundary is 80mi away from mine.
Well, I rather flash it early in hopes the Z will take it so the plane can keep climbing as opposed to waiting, having the plane level and then the pilot bitch for higher....it goes both ways, I’ve had the center cry for
 

sizziano

Trusted Contributor
Messages
426
If the Z sector/sector combo is over the top and not just lateral then this is the best way to get someone to not take it in time and to ruin your relationship with that facility. Just let it auto flash.
That's fine, I'll just call them and annoy them until they take it.
 

sumtingwon

Member
Messages
25
I personally prefer sending/receiving flashes (no pun intended lol) ASAP. At times it does help with workload management. As for interface/limitation issues in regards to FP's, I guess having a FDIO (fido) system nearby helps tremendously. One of the facilities I worked at had that setup and it was great.

But once you have worked with Thales you won't complain about STARS or MEARTS. lol
 

Move78

Forum Sage
Messages
1,048
That's fine, I'll just call them and annoy them until they take it.
Right why work together when you can just be a selfish pile of elephant shit for no reason? Everyone in my facility hates everyone in the neighboring facilities and visa versa because there's a handful of people in my facility who are awful at working with others and there's a handful of people at their facilities who are awful at working with others and all these retards are still allowed to work air traffic because 2020 is allergic to accountability.
 

sizziano

Trusted Contributor
Messages
426
Right why work together when you can just be a selfish pile of elephant shit for no reason? Everyone in my facility hates everyone in the neighboring facilities and visa versa because there's a handful of people in my facility who are awful at working with others and there's a handful of people at their facilities who are awful at working with others and all these retards are still allowed to work air traffic because 2020 is allergic to accountability.
We have auto flashes most of the time, relax.
 

Soham

Trusted Contributor
Messages
86
Sounds like you need to learn how to scan and actually evaluate your traffic/datablocks instead of this mindless take a handoff-make a handoff bullshit. Worst training technique ever in the new era of controllers. Most facilities have enabled the adaptation for auto-flash anyway - which is a testament to many people’s inability to scan - who wants to watch the flash that long?! It’s stupid.

Ok boomer.
 

Saltier

Active Member
Messages
120
Sounds like you need to learn how to scan and actually evaluate your traffic/datablocks instead of this mindless take a handoff-make a handoff bullshit. Worst training technique ever in the new era of controllers. Most facilities have enabled the adaptation for auto-flash anyway - which is a testament to many people’s inability to scan - who wants to watch the flash that long?! It’s stupid.

Why not just let it flash and when the receiving controller is ready to take it, they can take it. If it's flashing for miles on end, fine. If I see it coming, then I know I can manage my frequency that way. If you wait until the last possible minute to flash it, you're forcing the next guys hand by having to take it in that moment or risk having an airspace violation. Let it flash if it's in the auto, and if it's a high-climber or arrival (ie not lateral), put them in the flash early.

Also, just because the next controller buys a handoff doesn't mean you are required to automatically ship them.
 

COWTOWN

Trusted Contributor
Messages
137
Sounds like you need to learn how to scan and actually evaluate your traffic/datablocks instead of this mindless take a handoff-make a handoff bullshit. Worst training technique ever in the new era of controllers. Most facilities have enabled the adaptation for auto-flash anyway - which is a testament to many people’s inability to scan - who wants to watch the flash that long?! It’s stupid.
Can't believe having a plane flashing early offends some controllers 😂
 

Saltier

Active Member
Messages
120
Or for you to call them every other handoff because they took it ten minutes early and now Captain Sully wants higher.
Is Captain Sully not climbing out the top? Why would I call you for higher if you already bought the handoff? The amount of times someone asks for a last minute altitude change immediately before being shipped is acceptably low that I think flashing early is still the better way.
 

Move78

Forum Sage
Messages
1,048
Some guys here are applying the situation to whatever specific context you’re used to seeing at facility X. Flashing early to an adjacent sector is usually harmless or a heads up because it’s all around the outside boundaries. But flashing everyone off the runway when they’re 20000 feet from the ceiling and 50 miles from the boundary to guy that is also on top of you is a bush move because you’re just clogging up the middle his scope for no reason. Or a prop that’s doing 100kts 50 miles from the boundary. If he takes the tag you’re not gonna ship him for 20 minutes. You’re just being annoying because your parents suck.
 
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