Handoffs and How Far Is Too Far

32andBelow

Legendary Member
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4,488
How do they know what's coming until someone is flashing at them? I'm confused.... I dunno where you work, but plenty of overlying tracon sectors out there, inter or intra facility.

So if everything is LOA/procedurally separated, why do we need controllers? You're telling me you're going to protect a route when there are no planes on it because someone might show up? If you saw the flash coming, you'd know if it was gonna work or not.
I thought this guy is talking about non radar? The LOA only protects their initial route. The center has to get them on course
 

sumtingwon

Member
Messages
25
How do they know what's coming until someone is flashing at them? I'm confused.... I dunno where you work, but plenty of overlying tracon sectors out there, inter or intra facility.

So if everything is LOA/procedurally separated, why do we need controllers? You're telling me you're going to protect a route when there are no planes on it because someone might show up? If you saw the flash coming, you'd know if it was gonna work or not.
Not trying to play devils advocate, But I think he is referring to the flow controllers knowing who is coming and when. Also some sectors may not even deal with VFR call-ups.

But you are right, in some facilities I have worked at not all centers know everything far before they come.
 

Saltier

Active Member
Messages
120
I thought this guy is talking about non radar? The LOA only protects their initial route. The center has to get them on course
eh, i skimmed, and still "listening" to zoom... must've missed the non-radar discussion. my bad. i work at a vfr tower idk what nonradar is
 

sumtingwon

Member
Messages
25
I thought this guy is talking about non radar? The LOA only protects their initial route. The center has to get them on course
I was referring to KACC being non radar, NOT the RAPCONS. Adjacent facilities have radar. Hence why I said not all centers know about everyone who comes to them ahead of time. Well I guess it depends on your definition of "ahead of time."
 

32andBelow

Legendary Member
Messages
4,488
I was referring to KACC being non radar, NOT the RAPCONS. Adjacent facilities have radar. Hence why I said not all centers know about everyone who comes to them ahead of time. Well I guess it depends on your definition of "ahead of time."
If they get it from the rapcon then it’s a radar handoff to the center. Centers have plenty of class d non radar towers in their airspace. I’m guessing the non radar towers have to call for release to the rapcon who will then give them a legal altitude and or route to miss traffic?
 

sumtingwon

Member
Messages
25
i dunno what that is, im at home on zoom
Control Tower Radar Display aka "sea turd". A lot of controllers who have radar experience utilize that in the tower to help conduct operations. Tower can technically go non radar too lol

If they get it from the rapcon then it’s a radar handoff to the center. Centers have plenty of class d non radar towers in their airspace. I’m guessing the non radar towers have to call for release to the rapcon who will then give them a legal altitude and or route to miss traffic?
KACC does NOT deal with any towers. The towers all deal with the RAPCONS. Yes the towers will call the RAPCONS for release. Typically over there it is so busy it is usually just a rolling call. And correct, the RAPCONS have the CD position so all of those departure instructions would have been issued. Then obviously the RAPCONS deal with controlling the traffic as well as mitigating any and all conflicts before initiating handoff to KACC.
 

MKK

Active Member
Messages
86
Maybe it’s acceptable when people don’t know how other type of facilities work but if your intrafacility doing this it’s annoying.
Also this is a great learning environment ! When someone said “center sees what’s coming” it’s true.

The airplanes may not even be generating a track yet but if it’s within a specific flying time of the boundary it shows up in the EDST. Basically even though I may not be talking to this plane for another 15 minutes, as soon as the flight plan was departed it shows up on my list. I don’t need to see a “flash” to know its coming.
 

COWTOWN

Trusted Contributor
Messages
137
Sorry Z guys, I’m flashing the departure before I even radar them and I’m going to put the plane you handed off to me to the next center while they are in your airspace before I even talk to them 🤷‍♂️
 

Termine

Trusted Contributor
Messages
337
You have to apreq changes verbally ONCE a handoff has been completed.
You have to apreq changes once a handoff has been INITIATED. Reference: 5–4–5 b and the associated interpretation (thanks MJ!).


Transferring controllers are not permitted to start a handoff to another controller, take the handoff back, make a change and start the handoff again without verbal coordination, unless otherwise specified in a Letter of Agreement (LOA) or facility directive.
 

jdatc

Trusted Contributor
Messages
335
This thread is great. I worked at 2 centers and a large tracon. I don’t care when people flash me handoffs, early, or late whatever. If Late, well, I probably saw the limited coming anyway. If early, I’ll take it. Doesn’t matter. Emergency, cool, I can do what I want anyway. Request, well we will see.

When people get upset about it, like my last center where everyone liked auto flash, and got annoyed if they were flashed anything but auto flash I made it my mission to flash them as early as possible to people that were delicate. Don’t like me flashing more then one at a time? Great, I’ll get everyone in the room to wait and on three we will flash everyone to you simultaneously.

I love it when people let me know where they keep their goat. It keeps this job entertaining.
 
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