Handoffs and How Far Is Too Far

CaptainObvious

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1,329
This thread is great. I worked at 2 centers and a large tracon. I don’t care when people flash me handoffs, early, or late whatever. If Late, well, I probably saw the limited coming anyway. If early, I’ll take it. Doesn’t matter. Emergency, cool, I can do what I want anyway. Request, well we will see.

When people get upset about it, like my last center where everyone liked auto flash, and got annoyed if they were flashed anything but auto flash I made it my mission to flash them as early as possible to people that were delicate. Don’t like me flashing more then one at a time? Great, I’ll get everyone in the room to wait and on three we will flash everyone to you simultaneously.

I love it when people let me know where they keep their goat. It keeps this job entertaining.
Approach won’t take the closest one? I’ll start flashing all 15 of them at them
 

Move78

Forum Sage
Messages
1,048
How do they know what's coming until someone is flashing at them? I'm confused.... I dunno where you work, but plenty of overlying tracon sectors out there, inter or intra facility.

So if everything is LOA/procedurally separated, why do we need controllers? You're telling me you're going to protect a route when there are no planes on it because someone might show up? If you saw the flash coming, you'd know if it was gonna work or not.
ERAM gives them access to all the flight plan information via limited data block if it’s routed anywhere in that center’s airspace, it doesn’t even have to be the sector. Limiteds act the same as full DB in this regard. So there’s no advantage to an early flash from underneath.
And like someone else pointed out it’ll all be in the EDST 20 minutes early as well.
 

Saltier

Active Member
Messages
120
ERAM gives them access to all the flight plan information via limited data block if it’s routed anywhere in that center’s airspace, it doesn’t even have to be the sector. Limiteds act the same as full DB in this regard. So there’s no advantage to an early flash from underneath.
I wasn't really saying there was an advantage or disadvantage to flashing early under. If someday I transfer to a tracon and flash early, it'll probably be because otherwise I'd miss it until my next scan and the guy would level, and then hustling to get the flash in when the guy was already bound to level.
good thing I work at a vfr lvel 4 tower and don't have these problems.!
 

N737ER

Member
I ♥ pointSixtyFive
Messages
44
This thread is great. I worked at 2 centers and a large tracon. I don’t care when people flash me handoffs, early, or late whatever. If Late, well, I probably saw the limited coming anyway. If early, I’ll take it. Doesn’t matter. Emergency, cool, I can do what I want anyway. Request, well we will see.

When people get upset about it, like my last center where everyone liked auto flash, and got annoyed if they were flashed anything but auto flash I made it my mission to flash them as early as possible to people that were delicate. Don’t like me flashing more then one at a time? Great, I’ll get everyone in the room to wait and on three we will flash everyone to you simultaneously.

I love it when people let me know where they keep their goat. It keeps this job entertaining.

jdatc, Like you I don't care when I get the flash, I'll take 'em when I want. My "Too Early" moment is the next controller flashing it to thier next controller while the aircraft are still in my airspace. My exception is when the aircraft is within ~5min of the next sector's boundary. I work a sector where I have 2.5min from crossing into my sector, to the boundary of the next. The next sector typically has no issues taking it within those 2/2.5min.

Previous Center was taught ~5min from boundary (nice wide sectors). Current Center seems to be ASAP (not as roomy, but still 4-8min in most places). ASAP has included before the receiving controller is even talking to the aircraft (more than 8min to their next boundary, and without a flash-through agreement). I find that interesting because there are people in my area that hate when a controller flashes them multiples at once.

In Z-Land , if someone is flashed 15min out, don't get pissed when you have to call for a hand-off if you flashed to a sector that was combined (at flash) then split out 10min ago, well before the limited was within my range. Also don't get pissed if I don't call saying the sector has been split...I'm not required to (unless stated by LOA/SOP).

On a side note: if my current facility did a better job of teaching us the surrounding sectors and displaying some of their boundaries, I'd do a lot more point-outs. One less radio change is one less opportunity for a pilot to go nordo. But I have no hope of this as at least two adjoing tracons' sector boundaries are not mapped correctly on my area's maps to begin with.

And like someone else pointed out it’ll all be in the EDST 20 minutes early as well.
To furth expand: If DM'd less than 20min from boundary, it'll show in EDST as soon as it's DM'd
 
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Stinger

Moderator
Staff member
Messages
1,436
If they'll be flying out of the top of my airspace: Initiate the handoff as soon as I talk to them.
If they'll be flying out the side of my airspace: Initiate the handoff within 10-15 miles of the airspace boundary or the TCP or what's in your LOA. Pilot asks to change their final altitude, then you can change it in the FDIO without needing to call verbally.
I won't take a handoff on an aircraft until that aircraft is at a point where I have control for something. Whether turns or descent/climb. It's pointless, but I also partly blame the other controller for switching aircraft early when the new person needs to call for any control instruction.
 

Saltier

Active Member
Messages
120
It's pointless, but I also partly blame the other controller for switching aircraft early when the new person needs to call for any control instruction.
I don't think it's pointless when you're down the shitter and the guy has a pretty low chance of having a conflict. It's one less person on your frequency and if the next guy took it earlier, there's a good chance they're less down the shitter.
 

MKK

Active Member
Messages
85
I don't think it's pointless when you're down the shitter and the guy has a pretty low chance of having a conflict. It's one less person on your frequency and if the next guy took it earlier, there's a good chance they're less down the shitter.
If you’re going down the shitter this is a whole different thread then 😂 if I’m going down the shitter, everyone is flashing on
 

Dialoutmfer

Active Member
Messages
89
This thread is great. I worked at 2 centers and a large tracon. I don’t care when people flash me handoffs, early, or late whatever. If Late, well, I probably saw the limited coming anyway. If early, I’ll take it. Doesn’t matter. Emergency, cool, I can do what I want anyway. Request, well we will see.

When people get upset about it, like my last center where everyone liked auto flash, and got annoyed if they were flashed anything but auto flash I made it my mission to flash them as early as possible to people that were delicate. Don’t like me flashing more then one at a time? Great, I’ll get everyone in the room to wait and on three we will flash everyone to you simultaneously.

I love it when people let me know where they keep their goat. It keeps this job entertaining.
Two centers here also, so you took pleasure in going to a center with a culture of flashing at an appropriate time and pissing off as many controllers as possible ? Nice. If you can’t see the value of not forcing extra data blocks on your fellow controller’s scope I can’t help you. The few controllers who I have seen do this consistently over the years were either weak controllers trying to survive their next session while they searched for their next traffic dodging scam or absolute assholes.
 

jdatc

Trusted Contributor
Messages
335
Two centers here also, so you took pleasure in going to a center with a culture of flashing at an appropriate time and pissing off as many controllers as possible ? Nice. If you can’t see the value of not forcing extra data blocks on your fellow controller’s scope I can’t help you. The few controllers who I have seen do this consistently over the years were either weak controllers trying to survive their next session while they searched for their next traffic dodging scam or absolute assholes.
Yeah. All correct. Especially the asshole part. I flashed at the appropriate time for people, but for you, I can tell I’d flash early, often and probably PVD guys and do worthless point outs.

One day I will figure this out. Thank god I am at a tracon now so you are safe. Oh, I also would if I was seeing a controller going down the shitter route people around their airspace and not do flash throughs and stuff like that. I am a team player to the right people.

But yeah, people I hate, I took it to them. Especially self righteous ones.

To balance out the asshole part though, I just donated 40 hours of annual to some one on the donor list. I have another 40 to donate next week. Thanks Covid!
 
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COWTOWN

Trusted Contributor
Messages
137
Yeah. All correct. Especially the asshole part. I flashed at the appropriate time for people, but for you, I can tell I’d flash early, often and probably PVD guys and do worthless point outs.

One day I will figure this out. Thank god I am at a tracon now so you are safe. Oh, I also would if I was seeing a controller going down the shitter route people around their airspace and not do flash throughs and stuff like that. I am a team player to the right people.

But yeah, people I hate, I took it to them. Especially self righteous ones.

To balance out the asshole part though, I just donated 40 hours of annual to some one on the donor list. I have another 40 to donate next week. Thanks Covid!
Honestly never knew flashing early was an issue lol. I always wonder sometimes why the hell center hasn’t started a flash to me until 5-10 miles from the border. We make and take handoffs where I work because most traffic is in and out in 5 minutes.
 

slim

Active Member
Messages
89
To balance out the asshole part though, I just donated 40 hours of annual to some one on the donor list. I have another 40 to donate next week. Thanks Covid!
A bit off topic regarding the leave donor list. The hours listed to their name is the number of hours that has been donated so far or the amount of hours they are in the hole?
 

CaptainObvious

Forum Sage
Messages
1,329
I don’t really care if they’re fast moving. I don’t like watching guys coming out of an approach doing 80kts and 15 minutes away. I’m not gonna call and get in a hissy fit but I won’t be taking it for a long, long time.
Neighboring center no shit flashed through a Cessna 100 miles from my boundary (ran the boundary of another sector in the area). I watched that fucker flash for 45 minutes
 

jdatc

Trusted Contributor
Messages
335
A bit off topic regarding the leave donor list. The hours listed to their name is the number of hours that has been donated so far or the amount of hours they are in the hole?

I thought it was hours they were asking for / requesting. I just looked at the NATCA site and read some stories and chose a couple people to give mine to. I don’t think there is any running total of what they have received. Also after donating, your supervisor gets an immediate email to approve them. So if they are there, you can generally get them to do their part on the spot.
 

N737ER

Member
I ♥ pointSixtyFive
Messages
44
I thought it was hours they were asking for / requesting. I just looked at the NATCA site and read some stories and chose a couple people to give mine to. I don’t think there is any running total of what they have received. Also after donating, your supervisor gets an immediate email to approve them. So if they are there, you can generally get them to do their part on the spot.

Any idea how the supe thing works if your supe has decided that working since october is overrated, and won't be in until after the new year?
 

DankVectorz

Legendary Member
FAA
Messages
1,494
Facility
N90 New York Tracon
If the flashing is bother you then just take the handoff and it stops flashing. If you’re too busy to click on him then put me in a hold. I’m not going to switch the guy to you 30 miles from the boundary if that’s what you’re afraid of.
 

32andBelow

Legendary Member
Messages
4,465
If the flashing is bother you then just take the handoff and it stops flashing. If you’re too busy to click on him then put me in a hold. I’m not going to switch the guy to you 30 miles from the boundary if that’s what you’re afraid of.
I took an early handoff last week and then it immediately started CAing with other people inside approach
 

Alpha_bravo2

Trusted Contributor
Messages
506
I've seen some in our overlying TRACON start flashing our departures to ZJX as soon as they tag up. ZJX takes them before they are out of 020 so I'm guessing they don't mind the early flash.
 
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