KLAS Tower Issues

[Electricfence]

Sure it would. You specify the staffing numbers for certain times in an MOU. Are you suggesting both midnight people should stay plugged in until the traffic dies down? What if that's not for 4 hours? If it's a busy facility that needs more than one position open for a while, then there should be more than two people there. Which would be in *the local staffing MOU.* I also think it's funny that people are even talking about how it's too much traffic for one person. Is it really? How do we even know that? If you're going off the number of transmissions, how many of those were repeats because of the poor service they were receiving? Apparently every sober person for the last how many years has worked it just fine. Their management and leadership decided that traffic was appropriate for one sober person. Do you suggest we staff now with the safeguard for someone that does not have all of their faculties?

Why are you saying that these procedures are in place because "that's how we always do things"? The mid shift guidelines have changed how many times in the last decade? The recuperative breaks were put in place to combat fatigue, and as far as I've seen we aren't in the news for the few people sleeping anymore.

Across the system the current mid rules have worked until someone was working the position intoxicated.

Yes I’m saying people should stay on until traffic truly dies out. Las is a 10 or 11 or whatever, they know when traffic is coming and going, I’m sure they have a board to tell them just that. I’m not saying 29 planes cant be handled by one but why should it have to that early into the shift. If it continues longer, combine for a short break each, take a piss and continue to work until it really dies down. That’s what we are there for. Is it so unreasonable to ask controller to come into work and to work right away rather than break right away? And working 4 hours on light traffic or no traffic is done by most low level facilities that split the mid, they take longer than the recuperative break just because it’s convenient. And makes them less fstigued. So we can’t now complain about staying on longer when we voulatarily do it on the regular. that’s what I’m taking about when I say because that’s how we always do things. The break rotations is key ragardless of the traffic. How can we as a safety industry justify handling planes by ourselves that early into our shift or at all ever? How can we justify having such fatigue we need a break that quick, than maybe you shouldn’t come to work? How can we justify disappearing from the facility for 3-4 hours just because that’s how we always do things? Also if you think this is the only mid related issue, I think you are kidding yourself. Something this knee jerk is a culmination of events rather than just the one. If working a full normal shift on the mid is out of the question because we are fatigued than maybe we should truly address the problem and not handle it ourselves by doing whatever we think is appropriate while we are getting paid to work. This culture is how one person screws it up for the rest of us. We have a union, let’s use them and address the fact we are exhausted and working a mid isn’t healthy or desired because it co flicks with ours lives.

 

[Electricfence]

If at the start of the mid it’s too busy for one person to handle but y’all are combining down to 1 scope anyway that’s something that needs to be addressed in your facility. There’s no reason for a rule change to be made to address that. At least here at N90 if it’s super busy we have no problem keeping 2 (or more if 4x’s are held over) scopes open and divide the remainder of the time based on when we combine.

And this is exactly why a rule change needs to be made, correction why the faa thinks one needs to be made. because they are probably seeing that people haven’t been responsible and know that isnt acceptable and still do it anyway. Culturally at your facility that is acceptable so no one really has a problem with it.

 

[DankVectorz]

And this is exactly why a rule change needs to be made, correction why the faa thinks one needs to be made. because they are probably seeing that people haven’t been responsible and know that isnt acceptable and still do it anyway. Culturally at your facility that is acceptable so no one really has a problem with it.

This is something that can easily be handled at the local level with no need for a blanket rule nationally

 

[Maintainvfr]

Yes I’m saying people should stay on until traffic truly dies out. Las is a 10 or 11 or whatever, they know when traffic is coming and going, I’m sure they have a board to tell them just that. I’m not saying 29 planes cant be handled by one but why should it have to that early into the shift. If it continues longer, combine for a short break each, take a piss and continue to work until it really dies down. That’s what we are there for. Is it so unreasonable to ask controller to come into work and to work right away rather than break right away? And working 4 hours on light traffic or no traffic is done by most low level facilities that split the mid, they take longer than the recuperative break just because it’s convenient. And makes them less fstigued. So we can’t now complain about staying on longer when we voulatarily do it on the regular. that’s what I’m taking about when I say because that’s how we always do things. The break rotations is key ragardless of the traffic. How can we as a safety industry justify handling planes by ourselves that early into our shift or at all ever? How can we justify having such fatigue we need a break that quick, than maybe you shouldn’t come to work? How can we justify disappearing from the facility for 3-4 hours just because that’s how we always do things? Also if you think this is the only mid related issue, I think you are kidding yourself. Something this knee jerk is a culmination of events rather than just the one. If working a full normal shift on the mid is out of the question because we are fatigued than maybe we should truly address the problem and not handle it ourselves by doing whatever we think is appropriate while we are getting paid to work. This culture is how one person screws it up for the rest of us. We have a union, let’s use them and address the fact we are exhausted and working a mid isn’t healthy or desired because it co flicks with ours lives.

How can we justify handling planes by ourselves ever? Maybe because we're professionals that know what we're doing and don't drink on the job. Are you suggesting 2 people in the room at every facility at all times?

I'm legitimately having a hard time figuring out what you're suggesting, and I don't know if it's because you aren't suggesting anything or because your posts are so hard to read.

The current standard operating procedure is such that there is no room for error w bare bones mid staffing. Here there was an error and the only thing that could happen, did: it was a shitshow and national disgrace. The system hangs on a thin line every night, and let everyone down badly; including her! RIP

#FreeRK

There are bare bones staffing on most facilities mids because there's bare bones traffic on most facilities mids. This isn't some slight error that finally tipped the scales if she was working drunk. Cars only have one driver, if that driver is drunk and kills someone is it because regulations are inadequate and there should be two people in all cars at all times?

Even if the other person was in the tower, she could have slammed shots in the bathroom or before she came in. I don't understand how the staffing on the mid is connected to her "error" in any way. Am I in bizarro land? She let the system down, not the other way around!

 

[Electricfence]

you dont have to make the connection, but the public does and that’s who pays our bills and that’s why new rules were put in place for the time being. Im not suggesting anything specific in particular because I personally don’t know the fix to prevent anyone from slamming shots in the bathroom. However, this woman was alone at 11 very shortly after her and her counterpart got there for their shift, why should that be ok? If the answer is because that’s how we always do it and it’s normal, Then i think that’s not a good enough answer for the public and that’s why we are dealing with this crap. it is crap because you and I both know that under normal conditions a capable controller could have handled that traffic themselves. But we get paid a ton of money to work instead of managing our fatigue while getting paid and on break and the public will never understand otherwise.

 

[Super Salt]

How can we justify handling planes by ourselves ever? Maybe because we're professionals that know what we're doing and don't drink on the job. Are you suggesting 2 people in the room at every facility at all times?

I'm legitimately having a hard time figuring out what you're suggesting, and I don't know if it's because you aren't suggesting anything or because your posts are so hard to read.



There are bare bones staffing on most facilities mids because there's bare bones traffic on most facilities mids. This isn't some slight error that finally tipped the scales if she was working drunk. Cars only have one driver, if that driver is drunk and kills someone is it because regulations are inadequate and there should be two people in all cars at all times?

Even if the other person was in the tower, she could have slammed shots in the bathroom or before she came in. I don't understand how the staffing on the mid is connected to her "error" in any way. Am I in bizarro land? She let the system down, not the other way around!

This shit is FIRE ?

 

[DankVectorz]

However, this woman was alone at 11 very shortly after her and her counterpart got there for their shift, why should that be ok?

Because there wasn’t enough traffic to need 2 people to work it. That’s why it’s ok.

 

[Jordan]

She talked to 29 planes in a little over an hour. That’s not busy and it wouldn’t have sounded busy if every transmission didn’t have to be made 3 times.

Legend has it that Frontier is still holding at spot 1...

 

[thesoonerkid]

I can assure you LAS tower doesn’t have any big screen telling them when the traffic is coming (they are down in the Tracon). And to those of you who say that it was too busy, it wasn’t. The only reason it seemed busy is because she made it that way. Transmissions being made 2-3 times on each side is going to make any session.

 

[Tom]

Officially no longer with faa on news let's get back on track here

 

[Homsar]

I can assure you LAS tower doesn’t have any big screen telling them when the traffic is coming (they are down in the Tracon).

I can assure you that you’re wrong. It isn’t a big screen, but a monitor between LC1 and CIC, facing LC1’s back, that shows predicted traffic in 15 minute increments.

Not that that matters in this situation, really, but just a nitpick.

 

[SugarFoot1]

I can assure you that you’re wrong. It isn’t a big screen, but a monitor between LC1 and CIC, facing LC1’s back, that shows predicted traffic in 15 minute increments.

Not that that matters in this situation, really, but just a nitpick.

That cab was spinning so much everything was at LC1 back

 

[corn4ahead]

I can assure you that you’re wrong. It isn’t a big screen, but a monitor between LC1 and CIC, facing LC1’s back, that shows predicted traffic in 15 minute increments.

Not that that matters in this situation, really, but just a nitpick.

Yeah we definitely have this displayed in the tower and TRACON.

 

[Radar Contact]

I think any reasonable person should be able to come to the conclusion that the new mid procedures are absolutely a knee-jerk reaction and the union should be negotiating them away ASAP.

If safety IS the concern, then there should be 2 controllers in the operating quarters at all times and we should be getting the staffing numbers to accommodate that immediately through OT.

I’m at a level 7 up/down with 2 approach controls and we run 3 person mids. We are now required to keep one of our sectors open until midnight rather than combining it to the tower to begin fatigue mitigation. Meanwhile the first morning person shows up and instead of relieving an exhausted mid person, they split out the combined approach from tower. Second morning person MAYBE flexes as well, and in that case relieves one of the mid controllers. You still have another tired ass mid controller working the morning departures until the third morning shifter shows up. In what world did we just accomplish a SAFER operation?

 

[GulfCharlie]

I think any reasonable person should be able to come to the conclusion that the new mid procedures are absolutely a knee-jerk reaction and the union should be negotiating them away ASAP.

If safety IS the concern, then there should be 2 controllers in the operating quarters at all times and we should be getting the staffing numbers to accommodate that immediately through OT.

I’m at a level 7 up/down with 2 approach controls and we run 3 person mids. We are now required to keep one of our sectors open until midnight rather than combining it to the tower to begin fatigue mitigation. Meanwhile the first morning person shows up and instead of relieving an exhausted mid person, they split out the combined approach from tower. Second morning person MAYBE flexes as well, and in that case relieves one of the mid controllers. You still have another tired ass mid controller working the morning departures until the third morning shifter shows up. In what world did we just accomplish a SAFER operation?

I remember those days, chuck SGF up to the tower and keep MZU open while on does a break.

 

[Sweet Action]

If my little ole level 8 tower has a tmc computer showing projected traffic levels I think LAS would too. If not that’s just poor execution...

 

[Homsar]

If my little ole level 8 tower has a tmc computer showing projected traffic levels I think LAS would too. If not that’s just poor execution...

They do. Looked it at every day the entire time I was there. Don’t know what’s up with the guy who said they don’t.

 

[thesoonerkid]

They do. Looked it at every day the entire time I was there. Don’t know what’s up with the guy who said they don’t.

They don’t have the same big screens the tracon does. I didn’t say there was nothing in the tower showing when traffic is coming

 

[liter a cola]

Everyone calm down or else the FAA will send all of you to LAS... Or somewhere in Alaska.

 

[thesoonerkid]

Everyone calm down or else the FAA will send all of you to LAS... Or somewhere in Alaska.

They’ll send your ass back to L30 ?