N90 to PHL

julietoscar

Active Member
Messages
80
Annoying of you guys to jump to the assumption that people who want to stay are automatically scamming in some way. I'm sure a lot of people are from LI originally, or have just settled and don't feel like moving. If you have family and social network and kids with friends, I can see how it may not be super enticing to throw all that away just to move to a cheaper area if you have 10 years or less left in your career. That being said I don't know anyone in that area so I can't speak to what people's intentions are.
 

Deuce

Trusted Contributor
Messages
123
I'm surprised nobody is worried about the precedent this sets. The FAA is going into a building without consulting the local union or even management, and just dropping a memo that says they're taking the area and moving it with no input or discussion for the safety/workforce problems it may cause. We're talking about a complex area in a complex facilities. That should worry people. If they can do it at n90 they can do it at our facilities too.

If the FAA pulls this off it is not a good thing for us. Sure some people might get to go to PHL, but it's going to be a clusterfuck there for a long time if this happens and I wouldn't be so happy to hitch myself to it.

For a group of people that seem so outspoken against the government mandating things and infringing on rights when it comes to vaccines, it's crazy that nobody seems to have an issue with this.
 

Dolan

Trusted Contributor
Messages
389
Whether it's true or not, the FAA sees N90 as a huge scam. Controllers who should be certifying there get washed out all the time. Tens of millions of taxpayer dollars have been burned trying to solve their staffing issues in good faith and it's gotten absolutely nowhere. There are certainly drastic measures being taken now but I really don't think it's a slippery slope thing that's going to have ramifications for other facilities
 

N90-EWR

Trusted Contributor
FAA
Messages
85
Facility
N90 New York Tracon
No he's talking about the n90 ewr CPCs who don't want to go to PHL. If they stay at n90, they go to a new area and train from what I understand, but what if they wash? I'm sure some of the guys have been there for their entire career so the whole return rights MOU doesn't apply to them. Could be a great scam to get to their dream fac if they did end up going to the nest because as a previous level 12 tracon cpc, wouldn't they be eligible to go to any tracon with an opening? Could be a 1 way ticket to A80, F11, or even CLT


Anyone capable of certifying in N90's EWR area should never under any circumstance washout in any of the other 4 areas. Only way that's possible if it's intentional. ISP is a joke, and Liberty has some volume, but very low complexity. JFK and LGA are comparable in volume and complexity (slightly lower on the latter). If you're capable of legit certifying in any of those three, you should be able to certify in the others. In my 3 decades working at N90 I never saw any internal transfers from the LGA or JFK areas to EWR washout, and vice-versa.

Knowing most of the people there, the ones staying are likely the ones that are either already eligible to retire, or very close to retiring, plus a few that have strong family ties in the area. These people have no need to try scam their way out.

The ones looking to move to PHL are the younger ones that have a long time before retirement, and are trying to escape from Long Island.

Whether it's true or not, the FAA sees N90 as a huge scam. Controllers who should be certifying there get washed out all the time. Tens of millions of taxpayer dollars have been burned trying to solve their staffing issues in good faith and it's gotten absolutely nowhere. There are certainly drastic measures being taken now but I really don't think it's a slippery slope thing that's going to have ramifications for other facilities

Anyone who truly believes that N90 is or was a huge scam is gonna be in for a rude awakening when they realize that the washout rates have absolutely nothing to do with the location of the EWR area. If anything, moving the EWR area to PHL is going to make it HARDER to certify, because they're going to make what was already the most complex area at N90 even more complex once it's moved away from the LGA area.
 

DankVectorz

Legendary Member
FAA
Messages
1,769
Facility
N90 New York Tracon
Anyone who truly believes that N90 is or was a huge scam is gonna be in for a rude awakening when they realize that the washout rates have absolutely nothing to do with the location of the EWR area. If anything, moving the EWR area to PHL is going to make it HARDER to certify, because they're going to make what was already the most complex area at N90 even more complex once it's moved away from the LGA area.
They think N90 washes people out so we can keep our OT. That’s the “ scam”.
 

DankVectorz

Legendary Member
FAA
Messages
1,769
Facility
N90 New York Tracon
Off topic a bit, but what do you see as the biggest hurdle? People initially studying then just quitting half way through?

biggest hurdle to what? Certifying? As far as wash outs, the only wash outs I’ve seen have been legitimate can’t do it or fucked up in the lab during evals. Then there’s people who transfer here for their high 3, realize they’re not going to make it or aren’t willing to put the work in to make it and retire while in training (after collecting that move money of course). And then there’s those who come here either as a transfer or new hire, realize Long Island is just a terrible terrible place and withdraw.
 
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N90-EWR

Trusted Contributor
FAA
Messages
85
Facility
N90 New York Tracon
biggest hurdle to what? Certifying? As far as wash outs, the only wash outs I’ve seen have been legitimate can’t do it or fucked up in the lab during evals. Then there’s people who transfer here for their high 3, realize they’re not going to make it or aren’t willing to put the work in to make it and retire while in training (after collecting that move money of course). And then there’s those who come here either as a transfer or new hire, realize Long Island is just a terrible terrible place and withdraw.

This sums it up very good! It's truly mind boggling to us how people who have never set foot at N90 have this twisted idea that we somehow would intentionally wash out people to keep the OT.

I'm surprised nobody is worried about the precedent this sets. The FAA is going into a building without consulting the local union or even management, and just dropping a memo that says they're taking the area and moving it with no input or discussion for the safety/workforce problems it may cause. We're talking about a complex area in a complex facilities. That should worry people. If they can do it at n90 they can do it at our facilities too.

If the FAA pulls this off it is not a good thing for us. Sure some people might get to go to PHL, but it's going to be a clusterfuck there for a long time if this happens and I wouldn't be so happy to hitch myself to it.

For a group of people that seem so outspoken against the government mandating things and infringing on rights when it comes to vaccines, it's crazy that nobody seems to have an issue with this.

I also can't understand why NATCA national has not put up any resistance to this for the reasons you describe. This move can have "union busting" ramifications down the line. It will set up a very dangerous precedent of unilateral decisions that directly negatively impact members. I'm retired, so I no longer have a voice that matters, but if I was still active, I'd be urging my NATCA reps to fight this with everything they have.
 

N90-EWR

Trusted Contributor
FAA
Messages
85
Facility
N90 New York Tracon
Because it’s not unilateral. National is on board with it. They just kept it secret for at least 2 years.

If that's true, then the question to ask them is....why? Why would they be on board with an agency action that clearly undermines the union?
 

Calikid5

Member
Messages
2
Whether it's true or not, the FAA sees N90 as a huge scam. Controllers who should be certifying there get washed out all the time. Tens of millions of taxpayer dollars have been burned trying to solve their staffing issues in good faith and it's gotten absolutely nowhere. There are certainly drastic measures being taken now but I really don't think it's a slippery slope thing that's going to have ramifications for other facilities

Whether it's true or not, the FAA sees N90 as a huge scam. Controllers who should be certifying there get washed out all the time. Tens of millions of taxpayer dollars have been burned trying to solve their staffing issues in good faith and it's gotten absolutely nowhere. There are certainly drastic measures being taken now but I really don't think it's a slippery slope thing that's going to have ramifications for other facilities

we’ve had 2 teleconferences with Paul and Trish. Any time they got asked about why basically deflected, said that with current trends we won’t have the staffing to run the operation. Projected staffing for the BUILDING is 98 CPC’s by 2025. They said when the FAA comes with the cold numbers behind them, isn’t much the Union can do to fight it. They also completely deflected any questions from the trainees about what they’re supposed to do with getting fucked over. Waiting for class in EWR working CD/FD at AG pay for 2-3 years and now getting sent to another area to sit for who knows how long again and have to start all over. Their literal answer was “ I don’t see what that has to do with the Philly move. Next question.”

Now don’t get me wrong, as someone who WANTS to go to PHL, I only want it to get off LI. Operationally, this is a stupid thing to do imo. And the incompetence the FAA has shown along the way is truly mind boggling.
Reference the incompetence.... Wouldn't be Government work otherwise 🤷🏽‍♂️
 

corn4ahead

Trusted Contributor
Messages
592
we’ve had 2 teleconferences with Paul and Trish. Any time they got asked about why basically deflected, said that with current trends we won’t have the staffing to run the operation. Projected staffing for the BUILDING is 98 CPC’s by 2025. They said when the FAA comes with the cold numbers behind them, isn’t much the Union can do to fight it. They also completely deflected any questions from the trainees about what they’re supposed to do with getting fucked over. Waiting for class in EWR working CD/FD at AG pay for 2-3 years and now getting sent to another area to sit for who knows how long again and have to start all over. Their literal answer was “ I don’t see what that has to do with the Philly move. Next question.”

Now don’t get me wrong, as someone who WANTS to go to PHL, I only want it to get off LI. Operationally, this is a stupid thing to do imo. And the incompetence the FAA has shown along the way is truly mind boggling.
Mind-boggling yet expected. Also, the union is just an extension of the FAA.
 

julietoscar

Active Member
Messages
80
All of this falls right in line with national's priorities. Did anyone pay attention to the updated constitution they sent out a little while back? [Edit: the updates were just a proposal as corrected below]

it was mostly filled with changes to make it gender neutral, I think as a distraction to the fact that the literally switched the union's #1 and 2 priorities. So now NATCA's #1 priority is "providing a safe and efficient NAS" meanwhile #2 is protecting the rights and working conditions of the union members.

What the union has deemed its #1 priority is the fucking FAA's job! Why we are getting involved in that, I have no idea. The sole purpose and priority of the union should be protecting our working conditions. Literally the only point of a union. National has gotten completely lost in Washington.
 
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szaryk

Member
FAA
Messages
1
Facility
ZBW Boston Center
All of this falls right in line with national's priorities. Did anyone pay attention to the updated constitution they sent out a little while back?

it was mostly filled with changes to make it gender neutral, I think as a distraction to the fact that the literally switched the union's #1 and 2 priorities. So now NATCA's #1 priority is "providing a safe and efficient NAS" meanwhile #2 is protecting the rights and working conditions of the union members.

What the union has deemed its #1 priority is the fucking FAA's job! Why we are getting involved in that, I have no idea. The sole purpose and priority of the union should be protecting our working conditions. Literally the only point of a union. National has gotten completely lost in Washington.
That wasn't an updated constitution. It was a list of //proposed// amendments that NATCA members have submitted to be voted on at convention.

With regard to your reference of priorities, I definitely know some NATCA leaders that aren't on board with the #1/#2 switch.
 
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julietoscar

Active Member
Messages
80
That wasn't an updated constitution. It was a list of //proposed// amendments that NATCA members have submitted to be voted on at convention.

With regard to your reference of priorities, I know many folks pretty high up in NATCA that aren't on board with the #1/#2 switch.
Thanks for the correction. Even just the fact that somebody in the union proposed that change is pretty scary as it is
 

Termine

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I ♥ pointSixtyFive
Messages
574
“collaboration”
This is a real and valid concern with labor-management relations at all levels and across all time: The Union leadership spends more of their days with their Agency counterparts than they do working the boards (if they work at all) and they end up feeling like they have more in common with the guys across the table than the rank-and-file paying their salaries. It's just human nature, and it's a concern that every union has to address, or at least should address. I'm very much on board with the proposed amendment setting term limits on high-level Union officers, though the fact that literally every RVP position except Region X was uncontested is a damning statement on the rank-and-file's motivation and activism within the Union. Though it could also reflect a resigned feeling that "the big boys" at the top will come down on you hard if you speak out against them. I've gotten that vibe to an extent, with all of the sort-of-but-not-really "jokes" people make about the NCEPT priority lists and PAC donations and everything.

All of this falls right in line with national's priorities. Did anyone pay attention to the updated constitution they sent out a little while back?

it was mostly filled with changes to make it gender neutral, I think as a distraction to the fact that the literally switched the union's #1 and 2 priorities. So now NATCA's #1 priority is "providing a safe and efficient NAS" meanwhile #2 is protecting the rights and working conditions of the union members.

What the union has deemed its #1 priority is the fucking FAA's job! Why we are getting involved in that, I have no idea. The sole purpose and priority of the union should be protecting our working conditions. Literally the only point of a union. National has gotten completely lost in Washington.
As has been said, what they sent out are the proposed amendments to the Constitution. Literally any member can send in proposals, and both of the ones you're talking about were submitted by individual members, not by the NEB. Although the NEB and various of the committees did submit their own proposals, like to change how the salaries for top officers are calculated.
 
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