NATCA

Dontbotherme

Forum Sage
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748
I really really really don't understand how fucking dense people can be.

There are two separate factors in whether you get the disease, and how severe it is if you get it (at least re: transmission, obviously your immune system and maybe blood type and who knows what else play a role). Those factors are: PROXIMITY to an infectious person, and DURATION near that infectious person.

Having you back working a position next to someone is an increased risk compared to having you sitting at home. Having you, in addition, next to someone for training is another increased risk compared to sitting in the break room (or at home).

If the choice is between working next to someone or training next to someone, obviously those are the same. But if the choice is bringing someone back to work, or bringing someone back to work and also train, those are different.
So your logic is potentially fine with an employee, with an underlying medical condition, being recalled back to work for “staffing” and sitting close to co-workers, but not for a trainee to do the same who could also improve “staffing?” The risk is far greater to those with underlying conditions than a trainee, with no underlying medical conditions. Why doesn’t the RFS actually follow infectious disease doctor recommendations? Maybe because facilities/districts don’t want to reduce their operational capacity and/or pay overtime. If you’re working TRIPs, you have four people within the CDC exposure range PLUS potentially a supervisor PLUS potentially TMU. So that’s SIX people, but a SEVENTH is considered overkill? If anything, the employees, with underlying medical conditions, should be at home and the facility should either reduce their operational capacity and keep trainees at home or keep their operational capacity and allow people to train, especially those already back in the building.
 

Pendingleave

Member
Messages
9
Simple- Offer stay at home center trainees a detail to understaffed or hard to staff remote terminal facilities. Once they certify they have to spend 5 years as CPC then they can transfer back to their original facility with save pay from their terminal CPC pay which should put them somewhere in the D1/D2 pay band. For those keeping count at home this is sarcasm.
 

Carole_Fn_Baskin

Trusted Contributor
FAA
Messages
389
Facility
ZDV Denver Center
I’m not sure what other facilities training order is, but our region agreed to a covid style training order that would bring people back to train in small groups so if you were in the building you could train and if you were in line you could be on EA. Then something went to shit and the FAA called everybody back except those without certs and now we’re left trying to renegotiate a training order that no longer makes sense.
 

Phillyman2633

Legendary Member
Messages
871
The overwhelming majority of trainees nationwide will certify at their first facility.
You must not be in the Eastern Region lol

I love it when we agree. I saw that email this morning bragging about shit that happened to the ENTIRE govt and about choked on my dues.
That email made me throw up a little in my mouth. I wonder if Paul was physically inside the guy who was typing that out.

I really really really don't understand how fucking dense people can be.
Dawg have you seen the animations of how aerosolized particles disperse within an enclosed environment with air handlers?

How fuckin dense are you for thinking that you're safe because you're 6 feet away from someone? If trainees get recalled, they should be training. They're still sharing the breakroom, they're still sharing the bathroom, they're touching all the same surfaces and equipment...if they are physically present in the building, they should be training.
 
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Traffic8Out

Trusted Contributor
Messages
75
Cases have been going down in our county so they're talking about letting us go back to train and lowering the 6 feet requirement to 3 feet.
 

AnyTrafficPleaseAdvise

Trusted Contributor
Messages
246
You must not be in the Eastern Region lol


That email made me throw up a little in my mouth. I wonder if Paul was physically inside the guy who was typing that out.


Dawg have you seen the animations of how aerosolized particles disperse within an enclosed environment with air handlers?

How fuckin dense are you for thinking that you're safe because you're 6 feet away from someone? If trainees get recalled, they should be training. They're still sharing the breakroom, they're still sharing the bathroom, they're touching all the same surfaces and equipment...if they are physically present in the building, they should be training.
I won’t speak for every tower and up down in the East, but just look at the center training success rates. All of them besides ZNY have training success rates of 75% or greater. I can’t stand the “Well you’re not guaranteed to certify” mindset some controllers have on these boards. Yes, it’s not 100% a guarantee, but an 80%+ success rate is an overwhelming majority.
 

ClearanceClarence

Forum Sage
Messages
848
I won’t speak for every tower and up down in the East, but just look at the center training success rates. All of them besides ZNY have training success rates of 75% or greater. I can’t stand the “Well you’re not guaranteed to certify” mindset some controllers have on these boards. Yes, it’s not 100% a guarantee, but an 80%+ success rate is an overwhelming majority.
Also - the 10-20% “failure” rates at centers includes everyone that resigns/withdraws, and people that hardship out before the certify. The actual percentage of people who truly wash out is probably closer to 5-10% at Z’s. Then many of those people still end up being retained with NEST and go to a tower. If you make it past the Academy, the chances are overwhelming in your favor you’ll be a CPC somewhere down the line.
 

Move78

Forum Sage
Messages
1,048
no thx breh. even the nurses who debase themselves making tik tok videos all day dont even want china vaccine! Maxing out PAC will get you to DFW, but not hazard pay or a vaccine.



Some healthcare workers refuse to take COVID-19 vaccine, even with priority access


View attachment 5763
Nothing will get you to DFW

Also - the 10-20% “failure” rates at centers includes everyone that resigns/withdraws, and people that hardship out before the certify. The actual percentage of people who truly wash out is probably closer to 5-10% at Z’s. Then many of those people still end up being retained with NEST and go to a tower. If you make it past the Academy, the chances are overwhelming in your favor you’ll be a CPC somewhere down the line.
The posted training success rates (and time in years) are not necessarily applicable to everyone’s situation. This is especially true in some centers. The public staffing spreadsheet doesn’t differentiate between trainee types. Some facilities have grossly inflated trainee success rates because their sample is heavily contaminated with ERRs from like type facilities that can be close to 100% successful.
But generally yes I agree that there are too many controllers out there that just think everyone is gonna wash and that’s retarded, New Hire success has continually been increasing.
 

--

Trusted Contributor
Messages
194
Nothing will get you to DFW


I am trying to follow the blueprint in the "Pushing NCEPT" thread. Per sources, that is the way to go.


 

Loonster

Member
Messages
2
I applaud the successes for national. Thank you. Those gains are amazing and we should all be thankful for those.

Although there are facilities that are hurting like mine that have been on 6 day workweeks since May and NATCA has been resistant of helping our issue. At a time of pandemic when most six figure controllers have gotten 5/5 or 5/10 for a long period or at their worst back to full schedule with still two days off to be with their families, some facilities had increased strain with no relief in sight. Asking our loved ones at home to do more as we were constantly at work at a time of uncertainty and unknown, regardless of personal beliefs over the pandemic. To be frank, I'm not worried about more E/A, but having my two days off with an occasional overtime would be nice. Some of us over 300 hours of OT.

I hope NATCA can address and tackle the issue of staffing as a priority for relief on places that very much need it, as with us we have no end of constant overtime and exposure during these most interesting of times.

Majority be protected is understood (maintaining your COVID schedules for safety), but the minority shouldn't be left to take the brunt by adhering to policies that stop our ability to help ourselves in our staffing issue as we also aren't as well off as the centers and other higher level facilities who have generally better staffing situations.
 

Ad1234

Trusted Contributor
Messages
324
I applaud the successes for national. Thank you. Those gains are amazing and we should all be thankful for those.

Although there are facilities that are hurting like mine that have been on 6 day workweeks since May and NATCA has been resistant of helping our issue. At a time of pandemic when most six figure controllers have gotten 5/5 or 5/10 for a long period or at their worst back to full schedule with still two days off to be with their families, some facilities had increased strain with no relief in sight. Asking our loved ones at home to do more as we were constantly at work at a time of uncertainty and unknown, regardless of personal beliefs over the pandemic. To be frank, I'm not worried about more E/A, but having my two days off with an occasional overtime would be nice. Some of us over 300 hours of OT.

I hope NATCA can address and tackle the issue of staffing as a priority for relief on places that very much need it, as with us we have no end of constant overtime and exposure during these most interesting of times.

Majority be protected is understood (maintaining your COVID schedules for safety), but the minority shouldn't be left to take the brunt by adhering to policies that stop our ability to help ourselves in our staffing issue as we also aren't as well off as the centers and other higher level facilities who have generally better staffing situations.
That’s very reasonable. I don’t know how anyone really argues. But you’ll always have the “well at my Z we don’t do it that way so you shouldn’t either types” to ruin it for you. Sorry bud.
 
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Termine

Trusted Contributor
Messages
334
So your logic is potentially fine with an employee, with an underlying medical condition, being recalled back to work for “staffing” and sitting close to co-workers, but not for a trainee to do the same who could also improve “staffing?”
If the trainee is useful bring them back and let them be useful. Working next to someone for any reason is an additional risk, the question is why are we asking people (CPCs, trainees, anyone) to take that risk? Training isn't "useful" (or "essential") in the way separating planes is. I'm not saying I this should be 100% rigidly applied, but it seems like people are making the argument: "If a trainee is in the building working Scope A (or A-side), saying they shouldn't train on Scope B (or R-side) is inconsistent." I'm saying that is not inconsistent with applying maximum social distancing as permitted by the demands of NAS safety.

How fuckin dense are you for thinking that you're safe because you're 6 feet away from someone? If trainees get recalled, they should be training. They're still sharing the breakroom, they're still sharing the bathroom, they're touching all the same surfaces and equipment...if they are physically present in the building, they should be training.
Six feet is better than three. Twenty feet is better than six. People should be wearing masks in the operation, in the break room, in the bathroom. People shouldn't be getting closer than they have to.
 

32andBelow

Legendary Member
Messages
4,465
If the trainee is useful bring them back and let them be useful. Working next to someone for any reason is an additional risk, the question is why are we asking people (CPCs, trainees, anyone) to take that risk? Training isn't "useful" (or "essential") in the way separating planes is. I'm not saying I this should be 100% rigidly applied, but it seems like people are making the argument: "If a trainee is in the building working Scope A (or A-side), saying they shouldn't train on Scope B (or R-side) is inconsistent." I'm saying that is not inconsistent with applying maximum social distancing as permitted by the demands of NAS safety.


Six feet is better than three. Twenty feet is better than six. People should be wearing masks in the operation, in the break room, in the bathroom. People shouldn't be getting closer than they have to.
Replacing leaving controllers with new controllers is an essential safety function
 

32andBelow

Legendary Member
Messages
4,465
If this was going to last six years I'd agree with you. Vaccines are rolling out now, we should be able to get them within six months, fingers crossed.
It’s a ripple that will last for the next year plus while more and more people leave. You can’t shut down training and expect to keep the level of staffing you currently have. It’s an impossibility. Def looking forward to the anti training people bitching about working 6 day weeks next summer tho

it would be cool to see them collaborate a vaccine pathway for return to work for the poor trainees
 
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spider

Forum Sage
Messages
361
I would rather work 6 day workweeks next summer with OT and be vaccinated than the alternative of training as usual over the last several months.
 

FightingIrish2012

Forum Sage
Messages
915
Do you think part of the overall plan is to tank staffing to hook up the senior controllers so that this year or next year many facilities are on 6 days weeks and there is huge OT for non-trainees?

So those people got a year of working part-time, next they will get an extra $10,000 to $60,000 in OT depending on where you are at and how much you make. Double dipping on the Covid conditions.
 

Mike Kilo

Legendary Member
Messages
1,728
Do you think part of the overall plan is to tank staffing to hook up the senior controllers so that this year or next year many facilities are on 6 days weeks and there is huge OT for non-trainees?

So those people got a year of working part-time, next they will get an extra $10,000 to $60,000 in OT depending on where you are at and how much you make. Double dipping on the Covid conditions.
Nope.
 
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