NCEPT going away?

steakvendor

Member
Messages
47
Any controller requesting transfer has a max of 3 (maybe 4 or 5) years before they must be granted release.
How would that solve things? Unless you’re saying the controller should be guaranteed a release, but not guaranteed a specific location that they want to go to, this proposal won’t work. If you have a bunch of people only putting in paperwork to transfer to well-staffed facilities (DFW for example), this only makes their current facility even more understaffed, while making another facility incredibly overstaffed.
 

ManBearPig

Trusted Contributor
Messages
17
On the surface putting a cap of 3 or 4 levels makes sense, but it still has it's issues. First off, you don't even need to certify to put an ERR in. We have had trainees show up and put ERRs in after a few months at the facility.
Secondly, guys like myself that got hired in on prior experience bids had no choice. I didn't get to beat out classmates for the best facility on a list, I got sent to the next facility on the terminal list that needed a warm body. I know prior experience controllers vary in skill levels, but I got assigned to a five up/down and checked out faster than new hires that had 17 months of a head start. New hires are offered up to level 7's, (even 8's in some cases) right out of the academy. I'm routinely told from controllers who have less government employment/air traffic control experience I just need to "put in my time".

I propose that every employee wishing to transfer gets in one line and assigned a national transfer number. Requirements would be you must be certified at your current facility for one year. After that, if you wish to transfer you apply to transfer and you're issued your national number. When your number reaches the top 25 you will be given a list with all openings in the nation. If you select a 9 or below it will be automatic. Controllers at an 8 or 9 will be automatic for 10 and above. If you are at a 7 and below and you select a 10 or above you will have to go through some evaluation for that facility. If you fail the evaluation you will be offered the list again. If you choose a 10 or above again and fail to pass the evaluation for a second time you will go to the back of the list. If you have no radar experience and want to have the option to select facilities with radar, you must attend RTF or something like it prior to getting a transfer number. If you dont go through the radar training prior to requesting a transfer number you will only be offered tower only openings. This also levels the playing field for up/down BUEs taking longer to check out compared to tower only BUEs. If you get your list and don't wish to transfer to any of the facilities on it, you can submit one facility and be placed on a 180 day hold. If an opening becomes available during that 180 days you get first offer. After 180 days if no opening becomes available you must select from the list or go to the back of the line. If multiple people are "holding" for the same facility, offers would be issued in the order of who would be holding the longest. Releases will be no more than one year. A one time extension of six months can be requested from management but must have justification. The initial number assignment will be made from all the current BUEs with ERRs in and ranked by seniority.
I'm sure more details can be added but I think more people would be satisfied with a system like this. Additionally, it takes out a little of the politics. Feedback is welcomed.
The solution is simple.

1 year CPC requirement to put in paperwork.

Any controller requesting transfer has a max of 3 (maybe 4 or 5) years before they must be granted release.

3 level max transfer unless you are trying to go from Enroute to Terminal or vice versa.

Solves a bunch of problems.

Not a perfect system but better than it is now.
I think the idea of being certified for at least 1 year prior to putting in paperwork is also a good idea.
 
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jdatc

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173
Meanwhile the average controller age in DEN is 82...
There in lies one problem with any programs expectations; Not everyone is going to get to go to Denver in their career.

Everyone on here seems to complain that they want to go to XXX facility, but not XXX location. When in reality, you could probably get d01 or zdv.
 
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corn4ahead

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Messages
422
How would that solve things? Unless you’re saying the controller should be guaranteed a release, but not guaranteed a specific location that they want to go to, this proposal won’t work. If you have a bunch of people only putting in paperwork to transfer to well-staffed facilities (DFW for example), this only makes their current facility even more understaffed, while making another facility incredibly overstaffed.
I generalized my statement.

Yes, meaning that controller, after they have been waiting for 3 years, must be granted release provided that the desired facility was able to select said controller.

And to add to this,

A controller may only have 3 ERRs in at 1 time.
 

BCHOOSIER

Trusted Contributor
FAA
Messages
31
Facility
MBS Saginaw Tower
You can’t have any system where you don’t sctually get to choose where your going. This isn’t the military.
You would choose where you're going via the available opening nationwide. Any facility in the nation that has the ability to pick someone up you could pick. If you don't like any of your options don't transfer to any of them and continue to wait for your "dream" facility.
I wish the military assigned people this way!
 
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Foogy

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668
Am I the only one that's happy with multiply places? Or does the average person you think have a very specific facility?
 

32andBelow

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Messages
538
You would choose where you're going via the available opening nationwide. Any facility in the nation that has the ability to pick someone up you could pick. If you don't like any of your options don't transfer to any of them and continue to wait for your "dream" facility.
I wish the military assigned people this way!
I misread yours. I thought you meant pick from the top 25. But I re read it.
 

byoungblood

Member
FAA
Messages
11
Facility
ZME Memphis Center
This is also the first time that they've sent out TOLs without a Tower or Enroute assignment. So this is uncharted territory when it comes to requests to switch. For all we know, they may give you a choice when they call to offer you a class date.
That is new. I was hired back in 2008 so you could name your preference for terminal, enroute, or both when you applied. Most people I spoke to them usually got what they asked for, if they didn’t, it was usually because their state preferences (back when you could still pick two states) wasn’t selecting anyone at one option or the other.

I think the idea of being certified for at least 1 year prior to putting in paperwork is also a good idea.
About everyone I’ve spoken to about the current ERR process has said the same. A better proposal would be you have to be a CPC at least the average training time at your facility (ie., they get the time back they took to train you, gets certain facilities away from being a revolving door) but would probably be unpopular in high cost of living areas.
 

corn4ahead

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422
About everyone I’ve spoken to about the current ERR process has said the same. A better proposal would be you have to be a CPC at least the average training time at your facility (ie., they get the time back they took to train you, gets certain facilities away from being a revolving door) but would probably be unpopular in high cost of living areas.
Definitely not! That punishes people who are stuck at a facility that has a unnecessarily poor training Dept. Long training times are mostly due to poor training, not the controller.
 

CaptainObvious

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Messages
703
There in lies one problem with any programs expectations; Not everyone is going to get to go to Denver in their career.

Everyone on here seems to complain that they want to go to XXX facility, but not XXX location. When in reality, you could probably get d01 it zdv.
ZDV has had a ton of enroute transfers lately and has taken minimal people from terminal
 

AlphaLima

Trusted Contributor
Messages
21
Everyone on here seems to complain that they want to go to XXX facility, but not XXX location. When in reality, you could probably get d01 or zdv.
Sure. My biggest problem with NCEPT is the complete lack of releases at many places. We have never released anyone in NCEPT. Yet my TOP won’t break 4 hours unless I’m training and staying on position on purpose or if we take an unusual amount of sick hits. The only reason we don’t get spot leave is that we set up our schedule to bid down to guidelines for every day so that’s exactly what happened. Our staffing isn’t that bad but management sure as hell doesn’t want anyone leaving so they somehow got a ridiculous staffing number passed.

Of course they may say the other areas are worse off. They may be, but then why should I be stuck while my area is well staffed and management just sucks at staffing each area as needed? Maybe they should be treating each area in the larger facilities individually. If we were at our target number each area would have over 40 CPCs which would be borderline wasteful spending on staffing. We would literally tripping over each other.
 

ColdAilment

Member
Messages
41
Sure. My biggest problem with NCEPT is the complete lack of releases at many places. We have never released anyone in NCEPT. Yet my TOP won’t break 4 hours unless I’m training and staying on position on purpose or if we take an unusual amount of sick hits. The only reason we don’t get spot leave is that we set up our schedule to bid down to guidelines for every day so that’s exactly what happened. Our staffing isn’t that bad but management sure as hell doesn’t want anyone leaving so they somehow got a ridiculous staffing number passed.

Of course they may say the other areas are worse off. They may be, but then why should I be stuck while my area is well staffed and management just sucks at staffing each area as needed? Maybe they should be treating each area in the larger facilities individually. If we were at our target number each area would have over 40 CPCs which would be borderline wasteful spending on staffing. We would literally tripping over each other.
We have a very similar issue at our facility. On a normal slow winter day we may have as few as 4 to maybe 5 positions open, and 17 or more people at the facility, there literally are not enough positions or traffic to warrant having as many people as we do. Even for busy summer traffic we may have as much as 7-8 positions open, at most in the middle of the day when staffing is at its highest. We rarely work more than 4 hours a day on position, it's the best we can do to ensure that everyone gets a chance to work. We can lose about 1/4 of our staffing per day and still adequately staff the facility without calling in overtime, yet we are considered below our Target number, by 5!
 

Maintainvfr

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Messages
359
Sure. My biggest problem with NCEPT is the complete lack of releases at many places. We have never released anyone in NCEPT. Yet my TOP won’t break 4 hours unless I’m training and staying on position on purpose or if we take an unusual amount of sick hits. The only reason we don’t get spot leave is that we set up our schedule to bid down to guidelines for every day so that’s exactly what happened. Our staffing isn’t that bad but management sure as hell doesn’t want anyone leaving so they somehow got a ridiculous staffing number passed.

Of course they may say the other areas are worse off. They may be, but then why should I be stuck while my area is well staffed and management just sucks at staffing each area as needed? Maybe they should be treating each area in the larger facilities individually. If we were at our target number each area would have over 40 CPCs which would be borderline wasteful spending on staffing. We would literally tripping over each other.
If your areas staffing numbers are incorrect you should try to get them fixed, but it's a dangerous game trying to do anything by area instead of by facility. It opens the door to the agency wanting to separate the traffic counts and have different areas at different pay bands.
 

Electricfence

Trusted Contributor
Messages
76
[QUOTE="AlphaLima, post: Our staffing isn’t that bad but management sure as hell doesn’t want anyone leaving so they somehow got a ridiculous staffing number passed.

when the staffing numbers were created to facilitate NCEPT, Local NATCA should have been involved. have you talked to your REP/RVP about getting it changed if it is inappropriate?
 

Lalexf

Lurker
FAA
Messages
3
Facility
TPA Tampa Tower
I heard that June 13 was a deadline for submitted ppwk or a meeting.... does anyone know?
 
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