NCEPT going away?

randoturbo33

Trusted Contributor
Messages
175
I didn’t know others in the past had mentioned that. Any idea why they would have changed it?
In past years they've had issues where Terminal classes are full for months out while Enroute classes are starting with empty spots, or vice versa, just due to differences in candidates timelines. This is just speculation, but since it's mostly random anyway, it makes much more sense to simply assign people to the next open class and determine their track based on that.
 

AlphaLima

Trusted Contributor
Messages
21
Exempt status was removed 3rd quarter of 2017. So June of 2017 should be the first NCEPT panel with that rule.
Ok so i updated the math. From Oct '15 to Aug '17 the math is

IF
[Facility Projected Percentage]>=[Natl Projected Average] AND
[Natl Staffing Average]+[One Person's Percentage Worth]<=[Facility Staffing Percentage]

Both must be true to pass.
You cannot go below the average with a release.

June '17- Aug '17
IF
[Facility Projected Percentage]>=[Natl Projected Average] AND
[Facility Staffing Percentage] >= [Natl Staffing Average] AND
[Natl Staffing Average] - [One Person's Percentage Worth] <= [Facility Staffing Percentage]

All 3 must be true to pass.
Elimination of exempt status. Therefore you can release someone if it puts you below the average, but at that point you stop releasing. (Also Excel dosent let you do math on the comparative side of the operation. So i did it the other way around)

Sept '17 - Present
IF
[Facility Projected Percentage]>= 85% AND
[Facility Staffing Percentage] >= [Natl Staffing Average] AND
[Natl Staffing Average] - [One Person's Percentage Worth] <= [Facility Staffing Percentage]

Projected staffing just needs to be at or over 85%, everything else is the same.

So new charts.

Center Up/Down TRACON Tower

Overall some month changes but not a ton of changes in the tower department.

VNY joins the 0 club, otherwise still looking pretty good for the swivel heads.
Up/Downs jump 9 to a total of 25 facilities never releasing anyone.
Centers have no major changes, still 3 Zs boned.
TRACONs also have no major changes.
 
Last edited:

ManBearPig

Trusted Contributor
Messages
17
But then again you’re getting into the punishment of employees who didn’t get to choose where they went, and may not be able to leave to get that radar ticket. Or if they are able to get radar experience at a second facility, may not be able to leave that facility
We absolutely need a level cap, preferably at 4 levels. We cap swaps, why not ERRs. People at 8 and 9 up downs may not have got to pick where they wanted to be either. I see zero issue with making someone at a level 5 go get experience at a 8 or 9 before going to a 12. And they wouldn't be getting stuck there because the people coming into the 5s and 6s behind them would also have to climb the ladder. We washed out someone (who as a person was awesome, wish they had made it) in our level 8 up down tower. Tower isn't difficult or busy. That person NESTED to a 5, and within 3 months of certifying, got picked up at an 11 tower. That is f*cked up.
 

Maintainvfr

Forum Sage
Messages
359
We absolutely need a level cap, preferably at 4 levels. We cap swaps, why not ERRs. People at 8 and 9 up downs may not have got to pick where they wanted to be either. I see zero issue with making someone at a level 5 go get experience at a 8 or 9 before going to a 12. And they wouldn't be getting stuck there because the people coming into the 5s and 6s behind them would also have to climb the ladder. We washed out someone (who as a person was awesome, wish they had made it) in our level 8 up down tower. Tower isn't difficult or busy. That person NESTED to a 5, and within 3 months of certifying, got picked up at an 11 tower. That is f*cked up.
Swaps are basically non existent now so they're not really even worth comparing to. I don't think some kind of restriction is a terrible idea, but that would make en route a lot harder to get into for people that get placed at a low level tower when they get hired. Kind of a similar point to some of the discussion earlier, but it doesn't really make sense to say a guy that got placed at and certified at a low level tower is less capable of certifying at a center than a new hire.
 

170tovocus

Trusted Contributor
Messages
36
I don't think some kind of restriction is a terrible idea, but that would make en route a lot harder to get into for people that get placed at a low level tower when they get hired.
I think the 4-level cap is a great idea, but I'd also fully support an exception for Terminal guys wanting to switch to Enroute. Centers are way better set up to train zero-experience people, whereas a level 12 tower really isn't equipped to turn a level 5 CPC into a level 12 CPC.

Kind of a similar point to some of the discussion earlier, but it doesn't really make sense to say a guy that got placed at and certified at a low level tower is less capable of certifying at a center than a new hire.
Well to be fair, the guy who certified at the low level tower didn't spend 4 months in Enroute school, so he'd definitely need to play catchup compared to OTS hires. But I'd guess that, statistically speaking, someone who's already CPCed has better odds of certifying at a center than a random OTS hire.
 

Jennifer E

Member
FAA
Messages
47
Facility
ZOA Oakland Center
I think the 4-level cap is a great idea, but I'd also fully support an exception for Terminal guys wanting to switch to Enroute. Centers are way better set up to train zero-experience people, whereas a level 12 tower really isn't equipped to turn a level 5 CPC into a level 12 CPC.



Well to be fair, the guy who certified at the low level tower didn't spend 4 months in Enroute school, so he'd definitely need to play catchup compared to OTS hires. But I'd guess that, statistically speaking, someone who's already CPCed has better odds of certifying at a center than a random OTS hire.
Aren't they required to go back to OKC to get training if they have only been certified at a tower? I went from a CCF to a Center and my requirement to go to enroute school was waived.
 

FightingIrish2012

Forum Sage
Messages
336
Aren't they required to go back to OKC to get training if they have only been certified at a tower? I went from a CCF to a Center and my requirement to go to enroute school was waived.
This is done case by case but to save money and get you in the new building the agency and ATM will usually NOT have you go back to OKC when switching options when you are a transferring CPC. In most cases I’ve heard of you have to request it, then really fight for it.
 

BCHOOSIER

Trusted Contributor
FAA
Messages
31
Facility
MBS Saginaw Tower
On the surface putting a cap of 3 or 4 levels makes sense, but it still has it's issues. First off, you don't even need to certify to put an ERR in. We have had trainees show up and put ERRs in after a few months at the facility.
Secondly, guys like myself that got hired in on prior experience bids had no choice. I didn't get to beat out classmates for the best facility on a list, I got sent to the next facility on the terminal list that needed a warm body. I know prior experience controllers vary in skill levels, but I got assigned to a five up/down and checked out faster than new hires that had 17 months of a head start. New hires are offered up to level 7's, (even 8's in some cases) right out of the academy. I'm routinely told from controllers who have less government employment/air traffic control experience I just need to "put in my time".

I propose that every employee wishing to transfer gets in one line and assigned a national transfer number. Requirements would be you must be certified at your current facility for one year. After that, if you wish to transfer you apply to transfer and you're issued your national number. When your number reaches the top 25 you will be given a list with all openings in the nation. If you select a 9 or below it will be automatic. Controllers at an 8 or 9 will be automatic for 10 and above. If you are at a 7 and below and you select a 10 or above you will have to go through some evaluation for that facility. If you fail the evaluation you will be offered the list again. If you choose a 10 or above again and fail to pass the evaluation for a second time you will go to the back of the list. If you have no radar experience and want to have the option to select facilities with radar, you must attend RTF or something like it prior to getting a transfer number. If you dont go through the radar training prior to requesting a transfer number you will only be offered tower only openings. This also levels the playing field for up/down BUEs taking longer to check out compared to tower only BUEs. If you get your list and don't wish to transfer to any of the facilities on it, you can submit one facility and be placed on a 180 day hold. If an opening becomes available during that 180 days you get first offer. After 180 days if no opening becomes available you must select from the list or go to the back of the line. If multiple people are "holding" for the same facility, offers would be issued in the order of who would be holding the longest. Releases will be no more than one year. A one time extension of six months can be requested from management but must have justification. The initial number assignment will be made from all the current BUEs with ERRs in and ranked by seniority.
I'm sure more details can be added but I think more people would be satisfied with a system like this. Additionally, it takes out a little of the politics. Feedback is welcomed.
 

bob smith

Trusted Contributor
Messages
142
I propose that every employee wishing to transfer gets in one line and assigned a national transfer number. Requirements would be you must be certified at your current facility for one year. After that, if you wish to transfer you apply to transfer and you're issued your national number. When your number reaches the top 25 you will be given a list with all openings in the nation. If you select a 9 or below it will be automatic. Controllers at an 8 or 9 will be automatic for 10 and above. If you are at a 7 and below and you select a 10 or above you will have to go through some evaluation for that facility. If you fail the evaluation you will be offered the list again. If you choose a 10 or above again and fail to pass the evaluation for a second time you will go to the back of the list. If you have no radar experience and want to have the option to select facilities with radar, you must attend RTF or something like it prior to getting a transfer number. If you dont go through the radar training prior to requesting a transfer number you will only be offered tower only openings. This also levels the playing field for up/down BUEs taking longer to check out compared to tower only BUEs. If you get your list and don't wish to transfer to any of the facilities on it, you can submit one facility and be placed on a 180 day hold. If an opening becomes available during that 180 days you get first offer. After 180 days if no opening becomes available you must select from the list or go to the back of the line. If multiple people are "holding" for the same facility, offers would be issued in the order of who would be holding the longest. Releases will be no more than one year. A one time extension of six months can be requested from management but must have justification. The initial number assignment will be made from all the current BUEs with ERRs in and ranked by seniority.
I'm sure more details can be added but I think more people would be satisfied with a system like this. Additionally, it takes out a little of the politics. Feedback is welcomed.
A system this convoluted makes u sound like you’re on the fast track to management.
 

Stinger

Moderator
Staff member
Messages
1,138
Aren't they required to go back to OKC to get training if they have only been certified at a tower? I went from a CCF to a Center and my requirement to go to enroute school was waived.
This is done case by case but to save money and get you in the new building the agency and ATM will usually NOT have you go back to OKC when switching options when you are a transferring CPC. In most cases I’ve heard of you have to request it, then really fight for it.
National 3120.4 answers those questions:

2. Field Qualification Training. CPC-IT, FPL-IT, TMC-IT, and developmentals must receive qualification training at field facilities as outlined in this order and in facility directives. Qualification training must be conducted in accordance with the IPGs contained in this order.
a. CPCs transferring from the En Route option to the Terminal option or from the Terminal option to the En Route option need not attend initial qualification training for the new option or facility type at the FAA Academy. The specialist will be entered into the appropriate stage of field training as determined by the receiving facility ATM.
b. CPCs transferring from the tower-only option to a combined tower/Terminal RADAR Approach Control (TRACON) or TRACON-only option are required to complete Course 50034 or current course.
c. CPCs transferring from a tower to a tower or combined tower/TRACON to another combined facility or from a TRACON to a TRACON will be entered into the appropriate stage of field training as determined by the ATM.
d. En Route developmentals changing to a Terminal option, Terminal developmentals changing to the En Route option, and Terminal developmentals changing to a different facility type must attend initial qualification training for the new option or facility type.
e. En Route, Terminal, and Traffic Management controllers changing to the FS option who have not previously completed the FS initial training must enter FS training at the appropriate training facility.
f. FSS specialists changing to the En Route or Terminal option must complete initial qualification training identified for the option at the FAA Academy. A FSS specialist who has successfully completed either Terminal or En Route initial qualification training at the FAA Academy must be entered into the appropriate development stage of the training program as determined by the receiving facility ATM.
 

Maintainvfr

Forum Sage
Messages
359
I propose that every employee wishing to transfer gets in one line and assigned a national transfer number. Requirements would be you must be certified at your current facility for one year. After that, if you wish to transfer you apply to transfer and you're issued your national number. When your number reaches the top 25 you will be given a list with all openings in the nation. If you select a 9 or below it will be automatic. Controllers at an 8 or 9 will be automatic for 10 and above. If you are at a 7 and below and you select a 10 or above you will have to go through some evaluation for that facility. If you fail the evaluation you will be offered the list again. If you choose a 10 or above again and fail to pass the evaluation for a second time you will go to the back of the list. If you have no radar experience and want to have the option to select facilities with radar, you must attend RTF or something like it prior to getting a transfer number. If you dont go through the radar training prior to requesting a transfer number you will only be offered tower only openings. This also levels the playing field for up/down BUEs taking longer to check out compared to tower only BUEs. If you get your list and don't wish to transfer to any of the facilities on it, you can submit one facility and be placed on a 180 day hold. If an opening becomes available during that 180 days you get first offer. After 180 days if no opening becomes available you must select from the list or go to the back of the line. If multiple people are "holding" for the same facility, offers would be issued in the order of who would be holding the longest. Releases will be no more than one year. A one time extension of six months can be requested from management but must have justification. The initial number assignment will be made from all the current BUEs with ERRs in and ranked by seniority.
I'm sure more details can be added but I think more people would be satisfied with a system like this. Additionally, it takes out a little of the politics. Feedback is welcomed.
I'm going to be honest, this idea is just bad. Almost every facet is impractical and worse than NCEPT or the previous process.

You really think this is more complexed than our current system?
Yes
 
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KingPong12

Member
Messages
14
Does the “need not” in 2.a mean that I would still have the option to attend the academy after transferring as a CPC or is that off limits? Enroute to Terminal specifically?
 

Foogy

Forum Sage
Messages
668
I propose that every employee wishing to transfer gets in one line and assigned a national transfer number. Requirements would be you must be certified at your current facility for one year. After that, if you wish to transfer you apply to transfer and you're issued your national number. When your number reaches the top 25 you will be given a list with all openings in the nation. If you select a 9 or below it will be automatic. Controllers at an 8 or 9 will be automatic for 10 and above. If you are at a 7 and below and you select a 10 or above you will have to go through some evaluation for that facility. If you fail the evaluation you will be offered the list again. If you choose a 10 or above again and fail to pass the evaluation for a second time you will go to the back of the list. If you have no radar experience and want to have the option to select facilities with radar, you must attend RTF or something like it prior to getting a transfer number. If you dont go through the radar training prior to requesting a transfer number you will only be offered tower only openings. This also levels the playing field for up/down BUEs taking longer to check out compared to tower only BUEs. If you get your list and don't wish to transfer to any of the facilities on it, you can submit one facility and be placed on a 180 day hold. If an opening becomes available during that 180 days you get first offer. After 180 days if no opening becomes available you must select from the list or go to the back of the line. If multiple people are "holding" for the same facility, offers would be issued in the order of who would be holding the longest. Releases will be no more than one year. A one time extension of six months can be requested from management but must have justification. The initial number assignment will be made from all the current BUEs with ERRs in and ranked by seniority.
I'm sure more details can be added but I think more people would be satisfied with a system like this. Additionally, it takes out a little of the politics. Feedback is welcomed.
101 ways to get CPCs shotgunning to facilities, then repeating again a year later, and then again. Until everyone is whining about being in facs they dont like and it's the agencies fault and the union needs to fix it. Meanwhile the average controller age in DEN is 82...
 

Stinger

Moderator
Staff member
Messages
1,138
Does the “need not” in 2.a mean that I would still have the option to attend the academy after transferring as a CPC or is that off limits? Enroute to Terminal specifically?
I've seen it done a few times in the last year...enroute cpc to a terminal facility and at the academy for Tower class.
ATM can make that happen.
 

corn4ahead

Forum Sage
Messages
422
The solution is simple.

1 year CPC requirement to put in paperwork.

Any controller requesting transfer has a max of 3 (maybe 4 or 5) years before they must be granted release.

3 level max transfer unless you are trying to go from Enroute to Terminal or vice versa.

Solves a bunch of problems.

Not a perfect system but better than it is now.
 

BCHOOSIER

Trusted Contributor
FAA
Messages
31
Facility
MBS Saginaw Tower
Waiting each month for the PPT spreadsheet with columns A through forever, matching that to the monthly facility ranking, seeing if your facility is green, yellow, or red, Cat 1 or CAT 2, submiting the same packet of 15 pages to HR in three regions for all facilities you want to go to every 15 months, then trying to figure out a new least shitty facility you can submit new paperwork to because coworker A who's been in the facility for a cup of coffee submitted paperwork to a facility two spots below your lowest choice. After all that, a coworker who doesn't have paperwork in anywhere puts a hardship in and he's the only one that gets to leave. Oh well, you get to do it all again next month if you're lucky.
Signing up for a number, getting in line, and picking a facility and situation that's better for my career and family sounds less confusing and more fair to me.
 
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