Shoot The Breeze

[Uglytaco]

Yes me the person telling people they have to get the vaccine. Just quit man it’s that easy. Sorry you don’t believe in science maybe you should try getting an education for your next job

No

K, just don't go pretending you're the one kid in the hall who's above the rest.

Nah, that’s the entitled controller who’s been there 10+ years and won’t transfer for whatever reason. Also treats people like shit and nothing gets done about it.

 

[ATCJoe85]

Vicious circle... we didn't need mandates in a world where common sense ruled the day. If people put a mask on voluntarily, or got vaccinated voluntarily, guess what, no mandates.

Millions of people are convinced that masks do nothing, that vaccines do nothing, or worse yet... that those two solutions to the virus are the *actual virus*.

I'm anti mandate in that I think people should retain the right to decide for themselves.
I'm pro mandate in that people are fucking stupid and will immediately make the wrong decision.

If I were to believe any conspiracy, it'd be that Trump was in cahoots with the Dems all along. He would help spread the ignorance, and the dems would use that ignorance to justify mandates. Brilliant plan.

Nah, that’s the entitled controller who’s been there 10+ years and won’t transfer for whatever reason. Also treats people like shit and nothing gets done about it.

We know the same person! Small world!

 

[Homsar]

So waiting for full approval was never the standard then?

I got it long ago, so it wasn’t for me. I’ve just heard that argument before.

Yeah you’re probably right but shouting “ad hominem” doesn’t fix anything that’s why I posted the two wrongs page.

I don’t see what I did wrong though…? Like I just explained, my choices were to ignore (no resolution to my argument), engage an ad homenim (which is a rabbit hole that digresses from the argument at hand), or point out the ad homenim but not engage it (which is an aside, not a counter argument as poor Peter believes) in an attempt to steer the discussion back to the issue at hand. I chose the third option.

Ad Hominem: When People Use Personal Attacks in Arguments – Effectiviology

effectiviology.com

I suppose I could have done better, the methods here are nice ways to approach it. I can practice them right now, in fact:

I like how you guys are down to legal mumbo jumbo arguments. Well it’s approved but what about the lawyers?!

This is irrelevant. Do you believe they should be held legally accountable or not?

Claiming ad hominem clears up none of this, giving some fact based assertions as to why you and 32andBelow are in fact not the same kind of zealot in different hats would.
View attachment 6555

I’m choosing the “ignore” method on this one, though that picture is definitely me. “You’re not wrong, you’re just an asshole” describes me to a T.

So what you are saying is the goalpost of "I'm waiting for full fda authorization" is.....shifting? Crazy how that works just fine for mostly baseless opinions and not scientific analysis based in research and the realities of a situation. It's fucking wild wouldn't you say?

That’s not what I’m saying. I’m saying I understand people who were hesitant at taking an experimental vaccine continuing their hesitancy due to the lack of liability a company continues to enjoy while pushing a now government-approved product that they’re making profit over. Do you agree with this or not?

Fact based goalpost-moving: there's a comet headed to earth, we must destroy it.
Comet destroyed, but now there are fragments still headed this way, we must destroy those too.

Republican goal-post moving: there isn't a comet until I see it with my naked eye.
I see the comet, but it's probably not headed this way.
Well it's headed this way, but if I hold my finger up to the sky, the comet looks really small, so it probably isn't dangerous.

Democrat goal-post moving: We want two weeks to slow the spread.
Now we want the lockdowns until cases go down and a vaccine is available.
Now you should get the vaccine because it’ll stop the pandemic, not the lockdowns. Vaxxed or masked, your choice!
Now you have to wear a mask even though you got masked, never mind that we said you had a choice to encourage people to get vaxxed.

 

[AB19]

I got it long ago, so it wasn’t for me. I’ve just heard that argument before.


I don’t see what I did wrong though…? Like I just explained, my choices were to ignore (no resolution to my argument), engage an ad homenim (which is a rabbit hole that digresses from the argument at hand), or point out the ad homenim but not engage it (which is an aside, not a counter argument as poor Peter believes) in an attempt to steer the discussion back to the issue at hand. I chose the third option.

Ad Hominem: When People Use Personal Attacks in Arguments – Effectiviology

effectiviology.com

I suppose I could have done better, the methods here are nice ways to approach it. I can practice them right now, in fact:




This is irrelevant. Do you believe they should be held legally accountable or not?



I’m choosing the “ignore” method on this one, though that picture is definitely me. “You’re not wrong, you’re just an asshole” describes me to a T.


That’s not what I’m saying. I’m saying I understand people who were hesitant at taking an experimental vaccine continuing their hesitancy due to the lack of liability a company continues to enjoy while pushing a now government-approved product that they’re making profit over. Do you agree with this or not?


Democrat goal-post moving: We want two weeks to slow the spread.
Now we want the lockdowns until cases go down and a vaccine is available.
Now you should get the vaccine because it’ll stop the pandemic, not the lockdowns. Vaxxed or masked, your choice!
Now you have to wear a mask even though you got masked, never mind that we said you had a choice to encourage people to get vaxxed.

It’s not moving goal posts man it’s new data Jesus Christ

 

[Uglytaco]

Vicious circle... we didn't need mandates in a world where common sense ruled the day. If people put a mask on voluntarily, or got vaccinated voluntarily, guess what, no mandates.

Millions of people are convinced that masks do nothing, that vaccines do nothing, or worse yet... that those two solutions to the virus are the *actual virus*.

I'm anti mandate in that I think people should retain the right to decide for themselves.
I'm pro mandate in that people are fucking stupid and will immediately make the wrong decision.

If I were to believe any conspiracy, it'd be that Trump was in cahoots with the Dems all along. He would help spread the ignorance, and the dems would use that ignorance to justify mandates. Brilliant plan.

People just want to be left alone and we shouldn’t allow the government in every aspect of people’s lives. Therefore we have the good ol rights given by our creator “life liberty & property/pursuit of happines.” The government has fucked up so much in the past, why keep trusting them. Many governments when given too much power turned tirant very quick, people should learn that from history. C19 aside, it honestly gets tiring, it’s never gonna end, you’ll need boosters every year. We shouldn’t separate vaccinated form non vaccinated (people forgot about segregation?) or deny people things based on vaccination status. Nothing good comes from forcing things. So, leave people alone.

I got it long ago, so it wasn’t for me. I’ve just heard that argument before.


I don’t see what I did wrong though…? Like I just explained, my choices were to ignore (no resolution to my argument), engage an ad homenim (which is a rabbit hole that digresses from the argument at hand), or point out the ad homenim but not engage it (which is an aside, not a counter argument as poor Peter believes) in an attempt to steer the discussion back to the issue at hand. I chose the third option.

Ad Hominem: When People Use Personal Attacks in Arguments – Effectiviology

effectiviology.com

I suppose I could have done better, the methods here are nice ways to approach it. I can practice them right now, in fact:




This is irrelevant. Do you believe they should be held legally accountable or not?



I’m choosing the “ignore” method on this one, though that picture is definitely me. “You’re not wrong, you’re just an asshole” describes me to a T.


That’s not what I’m saying. I’m saying I understand people who were hesitant at taking an experimental vaccine continuing their hesitancy due to the lack of liability a company continues to enjoy while pushing a now government-approved product that they’re making profit over. Do you agree with this or not?


Democrat goal-post moving: We want two weeks to slow the spread.
Now we want the lockdowns until cases go down and a vaccine is available.
Now you should get the vaccine because it’ll stop the pandemic, not the lockdowns. Vaxxed or masked, your choice!
Now you have to wear a mask even though you got masked, never mind that we said you had a choice to encourage people to get vaxxed.

Get Vaxxed, now get vaxxed again, no, that one didn’t work so you have to take the next vax. But trust me, I’m the government so I never lied, but the 5th vaccine is gonna work.

 

[Homsar]

It’s not moving goal posts man it’s new data Jesus Christ

Like this?


Republican goal-post moving: there isn't a comet until I see it with my naked eye [because science says my eye can’t process anything with an absolute magnitude so high].
I see the comet, but it's probably not headed this way [according to leading scientists] .
Well it's headed this way [according to the new data], but if I hold my finger up to the sky, the comet looks really small, so it probably isn't dangerous [because science says it’s so far away right now and not to panic].

 

[AB19]

Like this?


Republican goal-post moving: there isn't a comet until I see it with my naked eye [because science says my eye can’t process anything with an absolute magnitude so high].
I see the comet, but it's probably not headed this way [according to leading scientists] .
Well it's headed this way [according to the new data], but if I hold my finger up to the sky, the comet looks really small, so it probably isn't dangerous [because science says it’s so far away right now and not to panic].

How do you want me to reply? Sure it’s similar to that but if you’ve ever been in a lab, doing research and observations is something that takes time, and you learn new things. You make recommendations based on what you know, and when you learn new things, you make new recommendations. I’m not saying you don’t understand science but you do realize that they do the best with what they know?

 

[ATCJoe85]

Democrat goal-post moving:
Now you have to wear a mask even though you got masked, never mind that we said you had a choice to encourage people to get vaxxed.

Democrats are not impervious to non-fact based goalpost moving, but I want to highlight this specific ridiculous asinine claim
The delta variant was not of notable concern when Biden admin came out with "vaxxed or masked", so when Delta did come into play, acknowledging its existence is something rational people do.
If covid mutated into an echo variant and people started becoming zombies you don't just stand there and go 'see, the dems are changing the goalposts again'.
Reality changed the goalposts in this case, not "democrats".
If you want to have a real conversation, don't intermingle irrational bullshit with actually debatable conversation.

 

[AB19]

Democrats are not impervious to non-fact based goalpost moving, but I want to highlight this specific ridiculous asinine claim
The delta variant was not of notable concern when Biden admin came out with "vaxxed or masked", so when Delta did come into play, acknowledging its existence is something rational people do.
If covid mutated into an echo variant and people started becoming zombies you don't just stand there and go 'see, the dems are changing the goalposts again'.
Reality changed the goalposts in this case, not "democrats".
If you want to have a real conversation, don't intermingle irrational bullshit with actually debatable conversation.

Jesus Christ thank you, I get COVID-19 is annoying as shit no one wants mandates or masks. These scientists are doing their best to try and keep the public safe and healthy and it’s infuriating hearing people think that the scientists want to control our lives

 

[twn]

Why mandate it, not my business if people get it or not. Why would you care if you are vaccinated and feel protected and wear your mask when you are outside?
I never cared about the flu so I didn’t care if people were vaccinated against the flu. Or fat fucks who don’t work out and get diabetes, heart issues, high blood pressure (kills millions a year). So yeah get fucked

It's because they are authoritarians and want complete and total control of everything you do. Fuck em, do what you think is best for you

 

[AB19]

It's because they are authoritarians and want complete and total control of everything you do. Fuck em, do what you think is best for you

Based and Lib better than Auth pilled

 

[Phillytroll69]

Vicious circle... we didn't need mandates in a world where common sense ruled the day. If people put a mask on voluntarily, or got vaccinated voluntarily, guess what, no mandates.

Millions of people are convinced that masks do nothing, that vaccines do nothing, or worse yet... that those two solutions to the virus are the *actual virus*.

I'm anti mandate in that I think people should retain the right to decide for themselves.
I'm pro mandate in that people are fucking stupid and will immediately make the wrong decision.

If I were to believe any conspiracy, it'd be that Trump was in cahoots with the Dems all along. He would help spread the ignorance, and the dems would use that ignorance to justify mandates. Brilliant plan.

The REAL conspiracy is that the govt took taxpayer money and gave it to corporations as they were shutting stuff down. BOTH Trump and Biden did it.
These 'free' vaccinations were payed for by taxpayers.

Maybe coronavirus isn't that deadly AND the vaccine is safe.

As long as everyone's making money we'll never know. Every vaccine is another cent on the stock ticker.

I'm more concerned about the ending mortgage/rent moratorium or whatever-banks pull out of market and buy real estate creating a nation of renters with no hope to build wealth...but I'm just crazy.

Tldr get the vaccine, it shouldn't be mandated, money in politics is the problem, crash or welfare extension by next January-Americans sold their soul for 1200

 

[Homsar]

How do you want me to reply? Sure it’s similar to that but if you’ve ever been in a lab, doing research and observations is something that takes time, and you learn new things. You make recommendations based on what you know, and when you learn new things, you make new recommendations. I’m not saying you don’t understand science but you do realize that they do the best with what they know?

Recommendations need to be paired with realistic pragmatism based on how detrimental they will be to the quality of life/society. When we know that vaccines prevent serious illness in most cases, and when we’re at a point where a vaccine is available to most people who want one, it’s time to treat Covid as the new flu and remove all restrictions, as they’re detrimental to life/society, as well as psychological impact on children as the article I posted yesterday touched on.

It’s in an insane irony that leftists have such a drive to “defeat” Covid-19, and go along with any and all new crazy ideas in the book, yet completely accept the Afghanistan war as something we could never win and should be a band aid that we rip off, dealing with some death and instability as a consequence. Why can’t they accept the same bandaid removal with Covid? Remove lockdowns, have a bit of a rough time as we reach herd immunity, but society comes out of it in the end for the better.

Democrats are not impervious to non-fact based goalpost moving, but I want to highlight this specific ridiculous asinine claim
The delta variant was not of notable concern when Biden admin came out with "vaxxed or masked", so when Delta did come into play, acknowledging its existence is something rational people do.

See above.

If covid mutated into an echo variant and people started becoming zombies you don't just stand there and go 'see, the dems are changing the goalposts again'.

Yeah, but it didn’t, and while delta is more infectious, it’s starting to look like they jumped the gun yet again by claiming it’s more deadly. Again, from the article I posted yesterday:

A common argument right now is that the emergence of the Delta variant changes everything. Currently, some regions of the U.S. are seeing a surge of infections and hospitalizations among young people. But the numbers coming out of Britain continue to suggest that Delta is not more virulent — that is, it does not cause more severe illness on an individual basis to unvaccinated people — despite being more contagious. A pediatric immunologist at a major university hospital who was not authorized to speak publicly said, “It is not biologically plausible that the same variant somehow is more dangerous for kids in the U.S. than it is in the U.K.”

More broadly, Schecter-Perkins said, “I don’t think that Delta changes the calculus because it still seems clear that it doesn’t cause more severe disease, so it still doesn’t change the fundamental question of ‘What are we trying to achieve by masking kids when they are still extremely unlikely to suffer from severe illness or death if infected?’ And the adults in their lives have the opportunity to be vaccinated and also protected so we don’t need to worry about transmission.” The pediatric immunologist said, “Even with a new variant, the onus is on those who recommend masking kids to robustly demonstrate a meaningful benefit, especially when the pre-Delta study of the Georgia schools did not find one, and when there are obvious socio-emotional and educational harms from masking children for this unprecedented duration of time.”

“Vaxxed or masked” should have been kept around as a promise, because nothing major has changed in the survivability rate.

We shouldn’t treat the war on Covid-19 the same as the war on drugs or the war in Afghanistan, a futile war against something we can never win.

 

[Billybob]

Do you guys think French braiding my pubic hair will make my weiner look more distinguished or Viking-like in appearance?

 

[32andBelow]

Bro during polio they just lined kids up and school and jabbed them one by one. No permission needed

 

[AnyTrafficPleaseAdvise]

Saw this the other day and damn near peed my pants laughing

 

[Peter Gibbons]

I’m choosing the “ignore” method on this one, though that picture is definitely me. “You’re not wrong, you’re just an asshole” describes me to a T.

Holy fuck that one missed you by a mile over your head apparently. Goddamn.

That’s not what I’m saying. I’m saying I understand people who were hesitant at taking an experimental vaccine continuing their hesitancy due to the lack of liability a company continues to enjoy while pushing a now government-approved product that they’re making profit over. Do you agree with this or not?

"I'm waiting for the FDA to bring the vaccine out of EUA and deem it scientifically and medically sound for use by the general public" becoming "yes it's approved by the fda, but I'm unhappy with the legalise in the contract signed with the US government" is absolutely a shifting of the goalposts.

As a general principle, yes I do agree companies should be held liable if they release a dangerous or harmful product without proper testing or approval, or they lie about such things, and also in general, big pharma does a lot of things that are definitely unsavory, and many times outright criminal in my opinion. You can reference the opoid epidemic for all of that among other examples.

That said, working hand in hand with the government who gives them lots and lots of money and a wide berth to make all the money they do (in my opinion this is a problem as well, but off topic) for a worldwide public health initiative to wipe out or at a minimum mitigate the risks of a disease is a far cry from pharma reps giving docs a quota of oxys to prescribe to people with minor back pain.

I get the mistrust of big pharma, I get the mistrust of the gov, I don't get the steadfast refusal to listen to fact and reason on the matter to assuage those fears and instead want to live in Alex Jones tinfoil hat land, nor do I understand people who think "living in a free country" is a zero sum game where you just get to do whatever the fuck you want at all times, regardless of the consequences for the people who you share that society with. Society comes with cost.

When your "body freedom" is prohibiting other people from living a normal life and participating in normal society because you think 98 percent of scientists and doctors studied in the matter are for some reason in some cabal lizard person conspiracy with the government to make money they don't benefit from directly.... I don't even know what to say to that honestly. It's just selfish and dumb. Public good has to join the balance scales at some point. But then here we are again at being 100 percent ideologically consistent and how that leads to people thinking you are a moronic jackass.

 

[32andBelow]

I love the anti vax melt down today. ???

it was like clockwork they all said they were waiting for full approval. Now they all say. BUT YOU CANT SUE THEM!!!

 

[Homsar]

Holy fuck that one missed you by a mile over your head apparently. Goddamn.

Naa, you did good with the compliment, thanks.

"I'm waiting for the FDA to bring the vaccine out of EUA and deem it scientifically and medically sound for use by the general public" becoming "yes it's approved by the fda, but I'm unhappy with the legalise in the contract signed with the US government" is absolutely a shifting of the goalposts.

Still have some straw left over from last week? I never said it wasn’t.

As a general principle, yes I do agree companies should be held liable if they release a dangerous or harmful product without proper testing or approval, or they lie about such things, and also in general, big pharma does a lot of things that are definitely unsavory, and many times outright criminal in my opinion. You can reference the opoid epidemic for all of that among other examples.

That said, working hand in hand with the government who gives them lots and lots of money and a wide berth to make all the money they do (in my opinion this is a problem as well, but off topic) for a worldwide public health initiative to wipe out or at a minimum mitigate the risks of a disease is a far cry from pharma reps giving docs a quota of oxys to prescribe to people with minor back pain.

I understand the liability shield for the development process and the EUA, but I don’t understand why it should extend beyond the approval, because that’s the certified fruits of their shielded experimental labor. It’s a slippery slope to continue to protect them based on the rationale you describe. Do you believe it should extend beyond certification, and why?

I get the mistrust of big pharma, I get the mistrust of the gov, I don't get the steadfast refusal to listen to fact and reason on the matter to assuage those fears and instead want to live in Alex Jones tinfoil hat land, nor do I understand people who think "living in a free country" is a zero sum game where you just get to do whatever the fuck you want at all times, regardless of the consequences for the people who you share that society with. Society comes with cost.

When your "body freedom" is prohibiting other people from living a normal life and participating in normal society because you think 98 percent of scientists and doctors studied in the matter are for some reason in some cabal lizard person conspiracy with the government to make money they don't benefit from directly.... I don't even know what to say to that honestly. It's just selfish and dumb. Public good has to join the balance scales at some point. But then here we are again at being 100 percent ideologically consistent and how that leads to people thinking you are a moronic jackass.

I love how your silly rant ends in an almost-ad homenim, after all we’ve talked about them today. I’m choosing to ignore this too.

 

[32andBelow]

It’s not a big conspiracy it’s federal law. Write your congressperson if you want this changed. It has 0 to do with covid.

42 U.S. Code § 300aa-22 - Standards of responsibility

www.law.cornell.edu