Special VFR through Class C

[rune]

Helicopter departs Class C airport VFR in marginal VFR. Lands at a landing area within the surface area. Few minutes later departs landing area to overfly same Class C surface area to another airport. Enroute the advertised weather changes to IMC. Does the helicopter need a SVFR to transition the Class C surface area when the airport is IMC?

 

[Dolan]

He does not. If he requires a special VFR clearance for cloud proximity he'll request it with you, if he doesn't he won't

 

[eltors0]

No.

 

[tink]

No.

He does not. If he requires a special VFR clearance for cloud proximity he'll request it with you, if he doesn't he won't

Why not? Isn't that why we in the tower say "field is IFR, say intentions?" I guess because we're saying our specific field is IFR, I perhaps don't know the conditions of the satellite.
OR as approach control, do you check the weather and if the outlying field has weather reporting and is IMC, still ask "xxx is IMC, say intentions?"

Should I not be asking that question ever?

 

[DankVectorz]

Why not? Isn't that why we in the tower say "field is IFR, say intentions?" I guess because we're saying our specific field is IFR, I perhaps don't know the conditions of the satellite.
OR as approach control, do you check the weather and if the outlying field has weather reporting and is IMC, still ask "xxx is IMC, say intentions?"

Should I not be asking that question ever?

just cause the airport is IMC doesn’t mean the airspace around or even above it is.

 

[tink]

just cause the airport is IMC doesn’t mean the airspace around or even above it is.

I agree. I worked in a tower and Once had an aircraft request an overflight when we were IMC and he said he was clear above our indefinite ceiling. So no issue there.
I’m just wondering bc this is a take off and an arrival inside a surface area. I’ve only ever worked those as ”sayintentions”

 

[Termine]

I agree. I worked in a tower and Once had an aircraft request an overflight when we were IMC and he said he was clear above our indefinite ceiling. So no issue there.
I’m just wondering bc this is a take off and an arrival inside a surface area. I’ve only ever worked those as ”sayintentions”

I would think VFR above a layer (whether OTP or just VFR over the top) is quite a different beast from not-VFR below a layer. Particularly if the layer is the restricting aspect.

 

[pedaNTIc]

No, because he isn't going to the airport, so who cares?

 

[Ad1234]

Shouldn’t the answer be no, but the pilot must say they are in vfr conditions?

 

[Dontbotherme]

Helicopter departs Class C airport VFR in marginal VFR. Lands at a landing area within the surface area. Few minutes later departs landing area to overfly same Class C surface area to another airport. Enroute the advertised weather changes to IMC. Does the helicopter need a SVFR to transition the Class C surface area when the airport is IMC?

ATC: “N12345, ABC airport is now IFR. Say intentions.”
N12345: “I want to continue to the NW and exit the ABC Class Charlie.”
ATC: “Roger.”

The concern is because they are already airborne, within the surface area. If they were still on the ground, you’d have to play 20 questions of “...is there a special way you’d like to leave today?”
Once they are airborne, your responsibility, at that point, is to inform them of the changing conditions. The changing conditions also prohibits them from landing again unless they ask for a SVFR or are declaring an emergency condition. They are simply transitioning the airspace. Their responsibility and goal is to exit the Class Charlie surface area.

 

[Stinger]

If they were still on the ground, you’d have to play 20 questions of “...is there a special way you’d like to leave today?”

There's nothing that says we can't say that Special VFR is available.

 

[CF]

There's nothing that says we can't say that Special VFR is available.

So where does the urban legend that we can’t come from?

 

[Dontbotherme]

There's nothing that says we can't say that Special VFR is available.

I was told you cannot solicit Special VFR. Saying it is available sounds like soliciting. At least, that was the way I was trained, in the tower, many moons ago...

 

[Dontbotherme]

So where does the urban legend that we can’t come from?

7-5-1 that says...
7−5−1. AUTHORIZATION
a. SVFR operations in weather conditions less than basic VFR minima are authorized:
1. At any location not prohibited by 14 CFR Part 91, Appendix D or when an exemption to 14 CFR Part 91 has been granted and an associated LOA established. 14 CFR Part 91 does not prohibit SVFR helicopter operations.
2. Only within the lateral boundaries of Class B, Class C, Class D, or Class E surface areas, below 10,000 feet MSL.
3. Only when requested by the pilot.
4. On the basis of weather conditions reported at
the airport of intended landing/departure.
REFERENCE−
FAA Order JO 7110.65, Para 7−5−6, Climb to VFR.
FAA Order JO 7110.65, Para 7−5−7, Ground Visibility Below One Mile.
5. When weather conditions are not reported at the airport of intended landing/departure and the pilot advises that VFR cannot be maintained and requests SVFR.

 

[CF]

7-5-1 that says...
7−5−1. AUTHORIZATION
a. SVFR operations in weather conditions less than basic VFR minima are authorized:
1. At any location not prohibited by 14 CFR Part 91, Appendix D or when an exemption to 14 CFR Part 91 has been granted and an associated LOA established. 14 CFR Part 91 does not prohibit SVFR helicopter operations.
2. Only within the lateral boundaries of Class B, Class C, Class D, or Class E surface areas, below 10,000 feet MSL.
3. Only when requested by the pilot.
4. On the basis of weather conditions reported at
the airport of intended landing/departure.
REFERENCE−
FAA Order JO 7110.65, Para 7−5−6, Climb to VFR.
FAA Order JO 7110.65, Para 7−5−7, Ground Visibility Below One Mile.
5. When weather conditions are not reported at the airport of intended landing/departure and the pilot advises that VFR cannot be maintained and requests SVFR.

Yeah. I guess you could say that if you tell them it’s “available” and they requested then it’s not soliciting. But if you said something like “would you like to request special vfr today” then you’re wrong.

 

[Dontbotherme]

Yeah. I guess you could say that if you tell them it’s “available” and they requested then it’s not soliciting. But if you said something like “would you like to request special vfr today” then you’re wrong.

It’s all semantics at that point. The same as when you don’t have line up and wait, but you really need to hit a gap so you tell someone to taxi into RWY 10 versus position and hold.

edit- line up and wait

 

[Termine]

So where does the urban legend that we can’t come from?

May also be the similarity to a contact approach, and people are conflating them? The note at 7–4–6 (a) does explicitly say "It is not in any way intended that controllers will initiate or suggest a contact approach to a pilot."

 

[Ad1234]

You’d lose in court and look like a fool trying to defend your actions. Why even bother?

 

[Super Salt]

If a controller does solicit SVFR and the pilot then states they want SVFR, then what happens?

Deny it because you initially solicited it? Or give the pilot the SVFR phraseology and let them go out?

 

[AB19]

It’s all semantics at that point. The same as when you don’t have line up and wait, but you really need to hit a gap so you tell someone to taxi into RWY 10 versus position and hold.

edit- line up and wait

That’s legal?