Terminal Class pass rate

[Dontbotherme]

August '16 bids earliest class dates were going to mostly ATC vets, right? They were after all the first to receive offers and clear medical. Historically not a group you would expect dismal pass rates from. Maybe we'll see an improvement when these classes cycle through, but I honestly don't know.

My money's on trouble in academy land. Tin foil hat really, but I don't see why the tail end of a hiring wave would perform WAY worse than the rest. New crop of harsh/incompetent instructors maybe? Tougher scenarios? Tech issues? Besides issues training, shifting from well qualified to qualified applicants is the only theory anyone's posted that looks good to me.

I know you guys are talking about the academy, but we've only had one VRA certify here thus far... Just because they have experience, it doesn't mean it makes them more successful at a high level facility. In fact, their success rate is dismal. These people didn't get RTF and/or TSEW... Every single person should get both.

 

[GulfBravoPapa]

Plenty of people are successful without TSEW... perhaps the ATO is overestimating some prior experience people's actual experience.

 

[ehmeye]

I know you guys are talking about the academy, but we've only had one VRA certify here thus far... Just because they have experience, it doesn't mean it makes them more successful at a high level facility. In fact, their success rate is dismal. These people didn't get RTF and/or TSEW... Every single person should get both.

I can't really imagine what it's like at a level 12 TRACON for a previous experience direct hire; but before I got to ZHU I was at a level 6 up/down and virtually every direct hire was a certified dipshit, with a few exceptions.

If the only thing someone has done in the military was PAR approaches or worked one helicopter at a time, they should be sent to the academy, previous "experience" or not.

 

[ajmezz]

I think they learned from their mistakes on that front bc the last few bids have specifically stated what was qualifying experience (approach/cto) and what wasn't (tactical army ratings, only having gc, etc).

 

[Move78]

I'm currently at a 6 up/down and the military prev exp new hires we've gotten have been really really bad. There's a 7 up/down nearby and they've had even less success with them. I'd rather train an academy grad.

 

[MV1987]

We have a few vets in our class and they are doing the academy like everyone else now. They aren't allowing them to go straight to facility.

 

[DontCallMeShirley]

I'm currently at a 6 up/down and the military prev exp new hires we've gotten have been really really bad. There's a 7 up/down nearby and they've had even less success with them. I'd rather train an academy grad.

Most of the trainers I've met feel pretty much the same. It's been so long since I worked traffic, and I've forgotten so much, that I'm hoping I'll be a fresh slate again after the academy. Nobody likes the "at my school/in the Air Force/at my last facility" guy.

 

[CaptainObvious]

I'm currently at a 6 up/down and the military prev exp new hires we've gotten have been really really bad. There's a 7 up/down nearby and they've had even less success with them. I'd rather train an academy grad.

Experience varies. Some of ours are bad, and others have smoked the training program.

 

[CF]

Word is the class that started PAs today isn't doing well. Already lost 2.

 

[ajmezz]

We have a few vets in our class and they are doing the academy like everyone else now. They aren't allowing them to go straight to facility.

Either those vets didn't have qualifying atc experience or they just decided to pursue an ots bid bc they are still sending exp hires direct to facility.

 

[Move78]

Either those vets didn't have qualifying atc experience or they just decided to pursue an ots bid bc they are still sending exp hires direct to facility.

They should all go to the academy first.

 

[ajmezz]

They should all go to the academy first.

I think you've just had a bad experience with hires to your facility. Everyone I know that has been hired on the experience bids have succeeded in 4-6 tower only and up/down facilities. I think it also depends on their experience. Sending someone with approach only experience to a tower or up/down is going to have some problems having never worked tower before. While tower will be easier to pick up, still a bit of a learning curve if you've never done it.

 

[Chazz]

Word is the class that started PAs today isn't doing well. Already lost 2.

Bringing it back to the original thread subject, can anyone confirm or offer more detail into this most recent PA and the time or two before that?

 

[MV1987]

Bringing it back to the original thread subject, can anyone confirm or offer more detail into this most recent PA and the time or two before that?

5/16 and 7/11 for the last two before the one going on now.

 

[Stinger]

Bringing it back to the original thread subject, can anyone confirm or offer more detail into this most recent PA and the time or two before that?

Current class finishes PAs tomorrow. Still have 6 after the 2 didn't make it on the first day.
From what I've heard is the last few classes have been ineffective control of the pattern leading to traffic alert situations with some cases of delaying departures as well.

 

[Chazz]

Current class finishes PAs tomorrow. Still have 6 after the 2 didn't make it on the first day.
From what I've heard is the last few classes have been ineffective control of the pattern leading to traffic alert situations with some cases of delaying departures as well.

Thanks for the update. Just so I understand 2 failed the final evals already and there are 6 left. Was the original class size 8 or did they lose a couple on the way to finals?

 

[Stinger]

Thanks for the update. Just so I understand 2 failed the final evals already and there are 6 left. Was the original class size 8 or did they lose a couple on the way to finals?

Class of 8.
Two failed on their first run on day one.
I think they may have started as a class of 9 in basics, but one didn't make it through basics.

 

[Chazz]

Class of 8.
Two failed on their first run on day one.
I think they may have started as a class of 9 in basics, but one didn't make it through basics.

Stinger, thanks for the clarification. Please let us know how the rest of them do today in their final evals and what your takeaway was on why those who didn't pass failed and why those who passed succeeded.

 

[MKK]

I failed enroute a few months ago. I failed by 3% on my last eval. It either just simply comes down to knowledge, or nerves. My class passed 7 out of 14, which was the highest pass rate in weeks at the time. Id say 4 people failed simply because they couldn't take in all the loads of information in that short amount of time, and I'd say myself and the other 2 that failed all just came down to nerves. In the 3 months of actual enroute training there is so much of intonation to take in and you either keep up and you get it or you don't. I also say that sometimes some of the information/instruction in the SOP's was so vague and broad that there wasn't a specific "right" procedure. For example, in the enroute environment after an aircraft lands you have to "remove strip" in the EDST to remove it from radar screen, and you have to take down the physical strip. There is no exact rule on how soon the strip needs to be taken down before you get points off. So all luck of the draw when it comes to an evaluator. One evaluator will not take any points off as long as you have it out of the bay by the end of the problem, another will take points off after a minute.

 

[Stinger]

Stinger, thanks for the clarification. Please let us know how the rest of them do today in their final evals and what your takeaway was on why those who didn't pass failed and why those who passed succeeded.

Lost one more today. Final number is 5 passing out of 8.
It sounds like it's mostly little things adding up and costing students. Not switching planes to departure, stripmarking errors, delays either on departures or getting them back across the runway to parking, and just plain not responding to aircraft when they call up. An ignored aircraft will keep calling and delaying the computer readbacks causing more issues than just the points lost by not replying.

Generally those that pass are on top of the scenarios and make quick decisions. They're able to project out the conflict points and adjust as needed.