Terminal Class pass rate

[breakaway2000]

Life is not about to get any easier. Training sucks, straight up.

Side note I am always entertained by people that get bummed or distracted by people who are affected by classmates failing. I think I could only name one person that was in my Academy class and I certainly wasn't friends with any of them. But perhaps I am just anti social.

You sound like you'd be fun at parties...

I could tell you the first and last name of everyone in my class, but what do I know, I actually cared about them and how they did.

 

[NEatc933]

Just to give everyone wondering an update, we passed 12/17 today.

Congratulations! Out of curiosity, are both TYS slots still available?

 

[DontCallMeShirley]

You sound like you'd be fun at parties...

I could tell you first and last name of everyone in my class, but what do I know, I actually cared about them and how they did.

Man you guys are harsh. You seriously can't expect every person to go through the academy to be some social butterfly. Throw 18 people from every corner of the nation into a class, and not everyone is going to A. like each other. B. care if others pass.

 

[rugbydog11]

Congrats on passing. Now the hard part begins. Try to start maxing out your TSP as soon as you you can. Stay out of trouble and show up on time every day. Also, nobody ever washes out if they bring pizza every Friday.

 

[fivebyfive]

Congratulations! Out of curiosity, are both TYS slots still available?

I believe that class is selecting facilities on Monday.

 

[NEatc933]

I believe that class is selecting facilities on Monday.

I know. I was curious if one or both of our spots dropped off the list since they lost 5 people.

 

[breakaway2000]

Man you guys are harsh. You seriously can't expect every person to go through the academy to be some social butterfly. Throw 18 people from every corner of the nation into a class, and not everyone is going to A. like each other. B. care if others pass.

lol that was actually the incredibly kind version of how I really felt about that comment.

I was writing a reply to your first comment, but I'll tie it all in. In your above comment, if you wonder how some classes pass 4/18, 5/17, etc, look no further then A and B above. Professionalism goes a long way, are you going to help someone differently if you like or don't like them? If you truly don't care if someone passes/fails, then you certainly wouldn't go out of your way to help them either.

Not saying it is. At all. But I can easily see a naive class getting into a herd mentality and blowing it all. Blind leading the blind.

If A and B are present above, this has a strong potential to happen. Back in the day, my class passed 100%. 5 people had no business passing, but the rest of us essentially would not let them fail. Some struggled with phraseology and vocal speed. I spent hours making voice recognition instructions with every Academy call sign for ground and local control so they could study and practice on their own (I added a 4 second pause after each so if they couldn't think and talk fast enough the next transmission would start). We made sure everyone memorized every available call sign so if you only caught a partial, you knew exactly who it was. Early on, we saw instructors 'parroting' them, we cut that shit out before the 2nd problem in the sims. We made every scenario, every decision, black and white, there was no mystery, no ambiguity. Even when it came time to take our finals, I had no idea how they would do, but we had done everything we possibly could to put them in a situation to be successful. They all passed and it's a great feeling knowing you potentially helped them start an incredible career and what that means for their families/kids etc.

As far as systematic stuff goes, this is my biggest issue with the new hiring practice. You no longer have a healthy mix of students with applicable military experience, contract/DOD tower experience, or experience from the powerhouse CTI schools that have the skill, knowledge, and ability to help others early enough to make a difference.

 

[Stinger]

Congrats on passing. Now the hard part begins. Try to start maxing out your TSP as soon as you you can. Stay out of trouble and show up on time every day. Also, nobody ever washes out if they bring pizza every Friday.

I'll say it over and over again and I'm sticking to it: Academy was more stressful than any facility I've been to. Training at a facility is easy, you've got tons of time available to use. Traffic complexity is more at a facility, but there's less pressure on you.
At least that's my thoughts since I never had to go beyond minimum certification hours.

 

[rugbydog11]

lol that was actually the incredibly kind version of how I really felt about that comment.

I was writing a reply to your first comment, but I'll tie it all in. In your above comment, if you wonder how some classes pass 4/18, 5/17, etc, look no further then A and B above. Professionalism goes a long way, are you going to help someone differently if you like or don't like them? If you truly don't care if someone passes/fails, then you certainly wouldn't go out of your way to help them either.

If A and B are present above, this has a strong potential to happen. Back in the day, my class passed 100%. 5 people had no business passing, but the rest of us essentially would not let them fail. Some struggled with phraseology and vocal speed. I spent hours making voice recognition instructions with every Academy call sign for ground and local control so they could study and practice on their own (I added a 4 second pause after each so if they couldn't think and talk fast enough the next transmission would start). We made sure everyone memorized every available call sign so if you only caught a partial, you knew exactly who it was. Early on, we saw instructors 'parroting' them, we cut that shit out before the 2nd problem in the sims. We made every scenario, every decision, black and white, there was no mystery, no ambiguity. Even when it came time to take our finals, I had no idea how they would do, but we had done everything we possibly could to put them in a situation to be successful. They all passed and it's a great feeling knowing you potentially helped them start an incredible career and what that means for their families/kids etc.

As far as systematic stuff goes, this is my biggest issue with the new hiring practice. You no longer have a healthy mix of students with applicable military experience, contract/DOD tower experience, or experience from the powerhouse CTI schools that have the skill, knowledge, and ability to help others early enough to make a difference.

We did the same thing for anyone who was struggling. We had a few DOD a few prior military and even a CPC rehire (who had worked the last year or so as a tower sim RPO)... We did tabletops with anyone struggling, had all the call signs and types memorized. We had 18/19 pass... The one who failed was sort of a lost cause but we did as much as we could to help that person. A group without anyone experienced to take the lead and sort of student teach would make things a lot harder.

 

[HenryTheAce]

I'll say it over and over again and I'm sticking to it: Academy was more stressful than any facility I've been to. Training at a facility is easy, you've got tons of time available to use. Traffic complexity is more at a facility, but there's less pressure on you.
At least that's my thoughts since I never had to go beyond minimum certification hours.

Interesting. I feel the opposite. Academy was stressful but going through DYSIM again for D-Sides and R-Sides here at ZMP where we actually wash people out in those stages was pretty stressful.

 

[DontCallMeShirley]

lol that was actually the incredibly kind version of how I really felt about that comment.

I was writing a reply to your first comment, but I'll tie it all in. In your above comment, if you wonder how some classes pass 4/18, 5/17, etc, look no further then A and B above. Professionalism goes a long way, are you going to help someone differently if you like or don't like them? If you truly don't care if someone passes/fails, then you certainly wouldn't go out of your way to help them either.

If A and B are present above, this has a strong potential to happen. Back in the day, my class passed 100%. 5 people had no business passing, but the rest of us essentially would not let them fail. Some struggled with phraseology and vocal speed. I spent hours making voice recognition instructions with every Academy call sign for ground and local control so they could study and practice on their own (I added a 4 second pause after each so if they couldn't think and talk fast enough the next transmission would start). We made sure everyone memorized every available call sign so if you only caught a partial, you knew exactly who it was. Early on, we saw instructors 'parroting' them, we cut that shit out before the 2nd problem in the sims. We made every scenario, every decision, black and white, there was no mystery, no ambiguity. Even when it came time to take our finals, I had no idea how they would do, but we had done everything we possibly could to put them in a situation to be successful. They all passed and it's a great feeling knowing you potentially helped them start an incredible career and what that means for their families/kids etc.

As far as systematic stuff goes, this is my biggest issue with the new hiring practice. You no longer have a healthy mix of students with applicable military experience, contract/DOD tower experience, or experience from the powerhouse CTI schools that have the skill, knowledge, and ability to help others early enough to make a difference.

Well, for one I agree with you that helping people out is a great thing. But I wouldn't expect anyone to do it, nor would I guilt trip someone for watching out for themselves at the academy. Training at my first facility I performed extremely well, but a very good friend of mine did not. Instructors and other controllers alike asked me to devote a bit of my time to help him, which I did. As much progress as we made, he didn't pass and I did. I felt bummed for him, but we're still close to this day.

I enjoyed helping him, but I can see why someone wouldn't want to. You already have a lot on your plate at the academy, and you're there to learn, not to teach. So whatever individual approach gets YOU to pass at the academy is what you should focus on. Reaching out to your classmates has nothing to do with "showing professionalism", any more than the next guy. It's a nice thought, but the student who knows they might work better solo is no less professional than the one bending over backwards to get the entire class through.

As for your last paragraph, I totally agree. It basically reinforces what I said about the herd mentality and poor study groups before. You can have entire classes now where there is no foundation of knowledge to build off of, or where a decent group leader could stand out. Still doesn't change the fact that there are people that will and do go through the academy relying on themselves to pass. And they shouldn't be shamed because they weren't part of the big happy FAAmily your class may have been. There are multiple approaches to getting through OKC, but at the end of the day you're there for your own shot at becoming a CPC down the line.

 

[breakaway2000]

Well, for one I agree with you that helping people out is a great thing. But I wouldn't expect anyone to do it, nor would I guilt trip someone for watching out for themselves at the academy. Training at my first facility I performed extremely well, but a very good friend of mine did not. Instructors and other controllers alike asked me to devote a bit of my time to help him, which I did. As much progress as we made, he didn't pass and I did. I felt bummed for him, but we're still close to this day.

I enjoyed helping him, but I can see why someone wouldn't want to. You already have a lot on your plate at the academy, and you're there to learn, not to teach. So whatever individual approach gets YOU to pass at the academy is what you should focus on. Reaching out to your classmates has nothing to do with "showing professionalism", any more than the next guy. It's a nice thought, but the student who knows they might work better solo is no less professional than the one bending over backwards to get the entire class through.

As for your last paragraph, I totally agree. It basically reinforces what I said about the herd mentality and poor study groups before. You can have entire classes now where there is no foundation of knowledge to build off of, or where a decent group leader could stand out. Still doesn't change the fact that there are people that will and do go through the academy relying on themselves to pass. And they shouldn't be shamed because they weren't part of the big happy FAAmily your class may have been. There are multiple approaches to getting through OKC, but at the end of the day you're there for your own shot at becoming a CPC down the line.

If I'm not mistaken you got picked up on this last bid correct? I don't want to get in to a continual back and forth because I think it's fairly clear what side you're on and your mindset heading into the academy. I simply hope for your sake that you aren't one of the ones who struggle and find yourself in a class where the leaders aren't willing to help.

 

[DontCallMeShirley]

If I'm not mistaken you got picked up on this last bid correct? I don't want to get in to a continual back and forth because I think it's fairly clear what side you're on and your mindset heading into the academy. I simply hope for your sake that you aren't one of the ones who struggle and find yourself in a class where the leaders aren't willing to help.

You are correct, I'm waiting for my class date as we speak. But there's really no back and forth to be had here. I agree almost 100% with what your saying. The bit I didn't agree with, which sparked this conversation, was when you replied to GulfBravoPapa in what I felt (and what I think you meant to be) a pretty condescending way. So what if he's not tight with his classmates? For the vast majority of people, yes, I agree, getting through OKC will be a group effort. But for some people, that's not how they operate.

I think you're assuming a lot about me to think I wouldn't help someone or ask for help. In fact, with the contract experience I have, I did intend to lead in my class, the same way I led for my struggling friend at our facility. It's not much experience, but I have a decent foundation where I might be able to take some pressure off someone else who's overwhelmed. If someone's not on board with that, good for them. I'm not going to put a gun to their head and make them socialize or study in a way that isn't productive for them.

I honestly think you've misinterpreted what I've said so far, so I hope this cleared it up. Like you, I totally advocate getting a good study group together and working as a unit to get through OKC. My point, which I think you missed, is that there will be people like without that cohesiveness, and there is nothing wrong with that.

 

[GulfBravoPapa]

In my defense my class was pass/pass at the Academy. There were some people in my class that had no idea what was going on despite being CTI grads. But everyone was going to their facility anyway. If someone asked a question I'd help, but I doubt many of us studied outside of class.

 

[DontCallMeShirley]

In my defense my class was pass/pass at the Academy. There were some people in my class that had no idea what was going on despite being CTI grads. But everyone was going to their facility anyway. If someone asked a question I'd help, but I doubt many of us studied outside of class.

Pass/Pass takes the pressure off for sure. I've had friends and former colleagues that went through Pass/Fail in 2014 and 2015, and it was a mixed bag. Some had great experiences like breakaway2000, but 3 or 4 ended up in situations where the class either wasn't taking it seriously (partying/drinking/hooking up) or really were lost causes. That handul of friends passed on their own, but I always knew them to be focused to the point where they could learn and pass by their own volition.

 

[Mike Kilo]

Everyone has their opinions, but not many have gone through the academy with these horrible pass rates, it's a bit stressful no matter how hard you try not to think about it. Having a close relationship with your classmates is important IMO, id like to think I helped my locals relax when I was on ground. If I didn't care when someone failed I'd be robot right? I'm not making any excuses for my performance on my last local, I passed, so on to the next one.

While this is a good mind set to have, ultimately as a GC, if you do your job well, there isn't anything else you need to do for LC. Don't try and coordinate a crossing when they cannot approve it etc. I'm not sure what else you could do for a LC beyond that. A shoulder rub? A good game pat on the ass?

I helped my local out by thinking ahead and coordinating when they had time, and when they could approve the operation. Nobody is saying they don't care if someone else passes, but you don't have to be BFFs who have studied for a thousand hours and know each others favorite color to make it.

 

[breakaway2000]

You are correct, I'm waiting for my class date as we speak. But there's really no back and forth to be had here. I agree almost 100% with what your saying. The bit I didn't agree with, which sparked this conversation, was when you replied to GulfBravoPapa in what I felt (and what I think you meant to be) a pretty condescending way.

Absolutely it was 100% condescending, but I think you missed why I made it condescending. I have no issue with someone being anti-social, I have a MAJOR issue with someone taking pleasure watching people wash out and the emotional effect it has on other people.

 

[DontCallMeShirley]

Absolutely it was 100% condescending, but I think you missed why I made it condescending. I have no issue with someone being anti-social, I have a MAJOR issue with someone taking pleasure watching people wash out and the emotional effect it has on other people.

Well, I'm just reading GulfBravoPapa's original comment, and I don't see anything there where he took pleasure in watching people washout.

He was talking about when people get so absorbed in making friends in OKC that they get distracted when those friends don't make it, and their own performance suffers as a result.

A little empathy is nice, but people statistically aren't going to make it. To get caught up in that to the point where you begin to struggle is dangerous.

 

[GulfBravoPapa]

Didn't mean to start a big debate... My Academy experience was very different from most because I didn't have the pressure that most do. Shirley got my point... It sucks when your classmates and friends don't pass but I was more of a focus on me, put myself first situation. There will always be distractions in life whether it's friends struggling, lack of sleep, family issues, money problems.. part of this career is being able to leave your outside life outside of the radar room/tower and give your full focus to working traffic.

 

[Stinger]

In my defense my class was pass/pass at the Academy. There were some people in my class that had no idea what was going on despite being CTI grads. But everyone was going to their facility anyway. If someone asked a question I'd help, but I doubt many of us studied outside of class.

You were pass/pass? One of the test classes for the cumulative grading system I'm guessing?
I was in a pass/fail PV class. I literally can't remember anyone studying, other than a quick glance at end-of-lesson tests to get ready for a block test.
But it was a totally different system, because the instructors did a preview of the test immediately before the actual test. And in those days it wasn't such a big deal if you said something wrong in a transmission as long as you went back and corrected it. Now I think it's considered the error being made as soon as you unkey the transmission.
The airport diagram and made-up scenarios that students run these days at home, goes above and beyond what should be needed to pass the course.