Terminal Class pass rate

[SNHU]

This is insanity. Places like SEE, BTV, and BDL should not be getting AG's since they release all the time to NCEPT. Since March 2020, SEE has released 12 and BDL has released 10. Meanwhile, places like ACK have released 2, BGR 0. The Volunteer Facility Placement Options list needs to be removed as well. How is FNT on the Volunteer list? 100% staffed as of this month and they have released 9 to NCEPT since March 2020.

I've said this for a while now. NCEPT needs to focus on release percentages. Facilities that have not released to NCEPT in a while should be getting AG's provided their CPC to Target % is low.

And for what its worth, I tried to ERR to BDL. Didn't work because of NCEPT. Now the agency has lost an ACK controller AND will be placing an AG at BDL who will not want to be there from day 1.

Sincerely, a resigned ACK controller.

 

[cryhavoc478]

If only we could get the FAA to pay attention… EVV has more trainees than they can handle. Rumor has it trainees are just sitting in break room doing nothing because they don’t have enough OJTI’s. All while other facilities are starting mandatory OT with no trainees, and with little to no hope of getting one. Places like CID are expected to be above 100% staffing soon, but still on the alternative list…. While others on the alternative list have no trainees and mandatory OT. How does that make any sense? Starting to seem more and more FAA/NATCA have a few facilities they actually give a fuck about and will staff so they can feed higher level facilities, while so many of us get fucked with no lube in so many lower level facilities.

 

[SNHU]

Rumor has it trainees are just sitting in break room doing nothing because they don’t have enough OJTI’s. All while other facilities are starting mandatory OT with no trainees, and with little to no hope of getting one.

Again, an ACK problem. Mandatory 6 day work weeks coming up this summer for ACK. 7 OJTI's with 0 trainees. Oh and ACK is placed on a "pass over due to training backlog" come May timeframe until October because even WITH $120k salary, there is no housing in the summer if you don't have a year-round rental. The "training backlog" is really a "housing crisis".

 

[Sassyquatch]

I want to know, who's in charge of making these decisions? Is it someone in NATCA, someone in FAA, or is this all from "collaboration"? It seems like whoever it is is so far removed from the actual process that maybe they don't actually know what they're doing.

 

[cryhavoc478]

I want to know, who's in charge of making these decisions? Is it someone in NATCA, someone in FAA, or is this all from "collaboration"? It seems like whoever it is is so far removed from the actual process that maybe they don't actually know what they're doing.

It’s some fucking bean counter who looks at it says “oh, EVV needs 10 bodies to be 100%, so let’s put 10 there!! Ah places like BGR, ACK, FAI, ASE have 77% so they must be fine!!!” They don’t consider those facilities haven’t released, people are fucking miserable and quitting, and the facilities ability to handle the amount of trainees. If it’s the FAA, natca is letting us down by not fighting for us. If it’s collaborative, natca is letting us down by not fighting for us. Either way, this union is failing its members.

SNHU what did natca have to say about that?

 

[GulfBravoPapa]

I want to know, who's in charge of making these decisions? Is it someone in NATCA, someone in FAA, or is this all from "collaboration"? It seems like whoever it is is so far removed from the actual process that maybe they don't actually know what they're doing.

Not that it's an answer but I believe ATO does placement for new hires. Who in ATO I have no clue.

 

[Move78]

This is insanity. Places like SEE, BTV, and BDL should not be getting AG's since they release all the time to NCEPT. Since March 2020, SEE has released 12 and BDL has released 10. Meanwhile, places like ACK have released 2, BGR 0. The Volunteer Facility Placement Options list needs to be removed as well. How is FNT on the Volunteer list? 100% staffed as of this month and they have released 9 to NCEPT since March 2020.

I've said this for a while now. NCEPT needs to focus on release percentages. Facilities that have not released to NCEPT in a while should be getting AG's provided their CPC to Target % is low.

And for what its worth, I tried to ERR to BDL. Didn't work because of NCEPT. Now the agency has lost an ACK controller AND will be placing an AG at BDL who will not want to be there from day 1.

Sincerely, a resigned ACK controller.

ACK is definitely a crazy outlier situation but you’re argument is to continue to send new hires where they don’t want to be? Also AGs are placed by the agency and they don’t care about your ERR.

 

[SNHU]

ACK is definitely a crazy outlier situation but you’re argument is to continue to send new hires where they don’t want to be? Also AGs are placed by the agency and they don’t care about your ERR.

I completely understand that nobody cares about my ERR. But what I'm saying is you're sending 1 AG to ACK where they don't want to be and 1 AG to BDL where they don't want to be. Why has BDL released 10 in 3 years? Because the AG's being sent there have no business being in Connecticut. Meanwhile, someone like myself would gladly go to BDL and sit there for 20 years until I retire. Instead, the agency and the union has lost 1 controller and will be sending a new hire to BDL where they don't want to be. So essentially 2 unhappy controllers. This is not the solution to the staffing crisis, in fact it's the opposite.

"continue to send new hires where they don't want to be?" We need to start limiting how many people are sent where they don't want to be. 10%+ of the workforce has ERR's on file. I'm sure nearly every AG gets placed somewhere they don't want to be. And if stuck in that facility for an extended amount of time, they're likely to quit. Sure, there is always going to be facilities that nobody wants to be at: FAI, DLH, ACK. But these are the facilities that we should be pumping AG's into. You'd do 2-3 years at these facilities and then move on to where you want to be. We should NOT be sending AG's to facilities that are constantly releasing to NCEPT. Waste of time.

I know it would take a complete overhaul of the system and would be messy, but why don't we start doing a replacement system. For example, if I want to go to BDL, send an AG to ACK to replace me. Something has to change...

 

[Move78]

I completely understand that nobody cares about my ERR. But what I'm saying is you're sending 1 AG to ACK where they don't want to be and 1 AG to BDL where they don't want to be. Why has BDL released 10 in 3 years? Because the AG's being sent there have no business being in Connecticut. Meanwhile, someone like myself would gladly go to BDL and sit there for 20 years until I retire. Instead, the agency and the union has lost 1 controller and will be sending a new hire to BDL where they don't want to be. So essentially 2 unhappy controllers. This is not the solution to the staffing crisis, in fact it's the opposite.

"continue to send new hires where they don't want to be?" We need to start limiting how many people are sent where they don't want to be. 10%+ of the workforce has ERR's on file. I'm sure nearly every AG gets placed somewhere they don't want to be. And if stuck in that facility for an extended amount of time, they're likely to quit. Sure, there is always going to be facilities that nobody wants to be at: FAI, DLH, ACK. But these are the facilities that we should be pumping AG's into. You'd do 2-3 years at these facilities and then move on to where you want to be. We should NOT be sending AG's to facilities that are constantly releasing to NCEPT. Waste of time.

I know it would take a complete overhaul of the system and would be messy, but why don't we start doing a replacement system. For example, if I want to go to BDL, send an AG to ACK to replace me. Something has to change...

You said the volunteer list has to be removed. This sounds like the opposite

 

[SNHU]

You said the volunteer list has to be removed. This sounds like the opposite

Yes, the volunteer list needs to be removed. There needs to be more movement in truly undesirable facilities as mentioned above. The process used to be that you could pick the facility you wanted to go to, then they moved to at least having an assignment prior to the academy. Now it's a lottery and it's not working. What happened? Why can't the process be the way it used to?

What is your suggestion for fixing the transfer process? Or do you believe that NCEPT is the way?

 

[cryhavoc478]

You said the volunteer list has to be removed. This sounds like the opposite

What in that sounds like he wants the volunteer list to stay? I’m personally of the opinion it needs to constantly change (as an example CID and FAR needs removed). You said ACK is an outlier, so I would include FAI, BGR, ASE and all those places into that same category, so what’s your answer? Fuck the controllers that are there? Why can’t make each of those facilities a mandatory on the academy list on a rotation basis. “Hard to release ” facilities rotate every list as a mandatory. Ack gets on, next class BGR, next class FAI, next class ASE, then back to ACK. These facilities get people and then people can potentially get out. Determine hard to release facilities by the last time they released on ncept, it makes sense to me 🤷🏻‍♂️

 

[ajmezz]

They would solve a lot of these issues if they made those facilities a tdy ($$$ incentive) or guaranteed release after 3-5 years cpc time for AG’s that go there.

 

[SNHU]

They would solve a lot of these issues if they made those facilities a tdy ($$$ incentive) or guaranteed release after 3-5 years cpc time for AG’s that go there.

Agreed. Guaranteed release after xxx amount of time. Like the military and being stationed somewhere.

 

[cryhavoc478]

They would solve a lot of these issues if they made those facilities a tdy ($$$ incentive) or guaranteed release after 3-5 years cpc time for AG’s that go there.

I mean they are trying $$$ with ACK, time will tell if that helps.

 

[Move78]

What in that sounds like he wants the volunteer list to stay? I’m personally of the opinion it needs to constantly change (as an example CID and FAR needs removed). You said ACK is an outlier, so I would include FAI, BGR, ASE and all those places into that same category, so what’s your answer? Fuck the controllers that are there? Why can’t make each of those facilities a mandatory on the academy list on a rotation basis. “Hard to release ” facilities rotate every list as a mandatory. Ack gets on, next class BGR, next class FAI, next class ASE, then back to ACK. These facilities get people and then people can potentially get out. Determine hard to release facilities by the last time they released on ncept, it makes sense to me 🤷🏻‍♂️

He’s railing against sending AGs where they don’t want to be and then also saying don’t let them get a volunteer sheet. If he got BDL as an AG he would never care about any of this.
There’s no process that would staff ASE and ACK with happy controllers unless it was volunteer. And they probably can’t get enough volunteers. But lucky for the agency they don’t have to care about happy controllers.

Yes, the volunteer list needs to be removed. There needs to be more movement in truly undesirable facilities as mentioned above. The process used to be that you could pick the facility you wanted to go to, then they moved to at least having an assignment prior to the academy. Now it's a lottery and it's not working. What happened? Why can't the process be the way it used to?

What is your suggestion for fixing the transfer process? Or do you believe that NCEPT is the way?

Im assuming the point of the volunteer list is to get people to a 4-7 they want to be at so everyone isn’t training for a job they don’t want. It’s an obvious drain on staffing if everyone trains then immediately vacates.
Idk why they went to this placement process but it’s a horror show. It’s been a great tool for management to bash the union with because the excessive misery is our problem not theirs.
There’s no transfer process that will work well with this staffing level. The damage has already been done. For years leading up to this. And pressure nationally over ATC staffing only moves them towards cancelling transfers all together. Every transfer is a lost CPC.

 

[22papa]

I mean they are trying $$$ with ACK, time will tell if that helps.

No need for time, I can tell you right now that won’t do anything…

 

[Delta_KVTA]

This is insanity. Places like SEE, BTV, and BDL should not be getting AG's since they release all the time to NCEPT. Since March 2020, SEE has released 12 and BDL has released 10. Meanwhile, places like ACK have released 2, BGR 0. The Volunteer Facility Placement Options list needs to be removed as well. How is FNT on the Volunteer list? 100% staffed as of this month and they have released 9 to NCEPT since March 2020.

I've said this for a while now. NCEPT needs to focus on release percentages. Facilities that have not released to NCEPT in a while should be getting AG's provided their CPC to Target % is low.

And for what its worth, I tried to ERR to BDL. Didn't work because of NCEPT. Now the agency has lost an ACK controller AND will be placing an AG at BDL who will not want to be there from day 1.

Sincerely, a resigned ACK controller.

I also have an issue with some of the facilities on the volunteer list. I looked at staffing numbers every six months from June 2018 to December 2023 for a handful of the facilities on the volunteer list. FNT averages 107.4% staffed and MBS averages 104.6% staffed. They have also had 10 and 11 losses through NCEPT respectively since 2019 (granted the Great Lakes 804 happened in 2019). I talked with my RVP about that list and he said the facilities in that list are there because they are “historically hard to staff” and traffic levels did not play a part in it determining what facilities get picked. Those places are only hard to staff because they let so many people go - they’re revolving doors. There are so many other facilities with worse historical staffing and literally five to ten times as much traffic or more compared to those places that need bodies so they can split positions and actually be safe.

I don’t hate the idea of a volunteer list, but they really need to take a hard look at the places currently on the list and adjust their choices. The list should be updated at least monthly to ensure that only the places that truly need people the most are on it

 

[Whiskey Charlie]

I completely understand that nobody cares about my ERR. But what I'm saying is you're sending 1 AG to ACK where they don't want to be and 1 AG to BDL where they don't want to be. Why has BDL released 10 in 3 years? Because the AG's being sent there have no business being in Connecticut. Meanwhile, someone like myself would gladly go to BDL and sit there for 20 years until I retire. Instead, the agency and the union has lost 1 controller and will be sending a new hire to BDL where they don't want to be. So essentially 2 unhappy controllers. This is not the solution to the staffing crisis, in fact it's the opposite.

"continue to send new hires where they don't want to be?" We need to start limiting how many people are sent where they don't want to be. 10%+ of the workforce has ERR's on file. I'm sure nearly every AG gets placed somewhere they don't want to be. And if stuck in that facility for an extended amount of time, they're likely to quit. Sure, there is always going to be facilities that nobody wants to be at: FAI, DLH, ACK. But these are the facilities that we should be pumping AG's into. You'd do 2-3 years at these facilities and then move on to where you want to be. We should NOT be sending AG's to facilities that are constantly releasing to NCEPT. Waste of time.

I know it would take a complete overhaul of the system and would be messy, but why don't we start doing a replacement system. For example, if I want to go to BDL, send an AG to ACK to replace me. Something has to change...

If ACK, FAI and DLH were my only options out of the academy, I would have quit. Hell I told my wife that if ACK or anywhere in Cali were the only options I’m quitting. Everybody else in my class would have quit over ACK too. Forcing people to these places is not an option. Even with $120k it’s not feasible to live.

 

[SNHU]

I also have an issue with some of the facilities on the volunteer list. I looked at staffing numbers every six months from June 2018 to December 2023 for a handful of the facilities on the volunteer list. FNT averages 107.4% staffed and MBS averages 104.6% staffed. They have also had 10 and 11 losses through NCEPT respectively since 2019 (granted the Great Lakes 804 happened in 2019). I talked with my RVP about that list and he said the facilities in that list are there because they are “historically hard to staff” and traffic levels did not play a part in it determining what facilities get picked. Those places are only hard to staff because they let so many people go - they’re revolving doors. There are so many other facilities with worse historical staffing and literally five to ten times as much traffic or more compared to those places that need bodies so they can split positions and actually be safe.

I don’t hate the idea of a volunteer list, but they really need to take a hard look at the places currently on the list and adjust their choices. The list should be updated at least monthly to ensure that only the places that truly need people the most are on it

This is exactly what I'm getting at! Places like FNT on the volunteer list. They've averaged 3 releases a year since 2020 and their 100% CPC # is 9 CPC's! And the best part is that they're currently 100% staffed. Make this make any sense because right now it makes none.

If ACK, FAI and DLH were my only options out of the academy, I would have quit. Hell I told my wife that if ACK or anywhere in Cali were the only options I’m quitting. Everybody else in my class would have quit over ACK too. Forcing people to these places is not an option. Even with $120k it’s not feasible to live.

I agree. Having lived there for 4 years, even $120k won't keep me there. I said even another $80k raise ($200k salary) would not keep me there. At some point you have to be real with yourself and ask what you're willing to give up. I gave up 4 years of being away from family and walked away with nothing. Everyone has a time limit and I reached mine.

 

[Move78]

This is exactly what I'm getting at! Places like FNT on the volunteer list. They've averaged 3 releases a year since 2020 and their 100% CPC # is 9 CPC's! And the best part is that they're currently 100% staffed. Make this make any sense because right now it makes none.

No you said there shouldn’t be a volunteer list. Not that the volunteer list is compiled poorly. 2 different things.