The 1 and None club - AKA the black holes in the System

AB19

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396
why make a rhetorical comment when trying to make a point? Make your damn point then, don’t skirt the truth because it sounds better for you. None of us make 60ish. And with raises and differentials mostly all of us come very close if not over 100k average as a work force.

You want to keep facilities open and throw money at them and potentially leaving them understaffed because no one might even want to go to elmira or moline or Bismark. All I’m saying is I disagree and I think consolidations will be way more beneficial in the long term. Take T75. They have like 25 scopes because they were built to be a level 10 but only use like 5, they consistently let people go via ncept and are now getting 3 more facilities. You’ll now have around 100 employees, making 9+ pay, eligible to go anywhere they want very easily because of a good training culture and all employees will have access to things because it’ll all be in house, they will have access to trainings and details because they are well staffed, how is that not beneficial for the workforce?
Also ncepts failure and bad long term training cultures exist just as much because of shitty employees as it does faa missteps.
How can anyone really argue with always having facilities staffed to 85 percent? Just because it’s not fair? Seriously go ahead and try to argue why that’s bad?
People get leave, people get training, people can swap shifts easier. So because shit stain number 1 and 2 and 3 have allergies or their wife isn’t happy, you get fucked? They should be the ones that catch the blame Not the faa program that the National union agrees with.
Consolidate and you’ll have less facilities to keep happy.
West Texas Tracon when

As someone who isn't even in the academy, this isn't the first time this has been discussed right? What can the average person do? Just bring it up to their rep repeatedly till something happens?
Nothing, hope your list is good and pick the place with that best staffing
 

Bandit117

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183
I think this is where you could run into a few problems with all your data.

6/17- The controller got selected and then turned down the TOL.
9/17- Controller got selected (and went) to A80.

AZO has NOT be eligible since.

Multiple hardships, internal supe bids, and I think a bid to TMU happened as well.
I think that is the story at some of these facilities as well, very little controller movement but no shortage of supervisor deviations or hardships. Unfortunately I don’t have the data to make a column for those movements because as far as I’m aware there is no tracker that I have access to with that information but I agree that it’s part of the conversation.

The only information I have is what’s from the PPT and the to and from columns lifted directly out of the PDF reports

the faa did not choose those numbers, they collaborated with the union. So that’s what those facilities workforce or union head thought was appropriate. So you can’t just blame the faaGuam is an Important example because If only 60 applied, that number will be significantly less at all the facilities you will offer the same deal to.

You recall from where that I’m not a controller?
This is hilarious, glad my anonymity is in tact. Maybe I should be on that thread.

Many of those facilities with differentials and ot already make close to if not above 100k. If single that’s great money, if you have a family and your spouse works, you are well Into the 100k+. And that’s still not enough? when houses in many of those places are priced significantly lower than rest of us
The FAA definitely chose those numbers, the union agreed to it. they were supposed to be revisited but I don’t know of a single facility who had their staffing numbers modified that w not part of a consolidation. They were somewhat arbitrary and estimated based on the maximum daily traffic that those places had.

take AGS, i’m sure their entire operation is built around what’s basically 1 to 2 busy weeks a year.

how many of these places are not on mandatory overtime despite being in the 70 and 80% range? if they are not then clearly their number needs to come down. There are facilities that can run perfectly fine with 70-ish percent staffing and won’t have six day work weeks but they also won’t be able to release anyone ever, that’s a case where their total number needs to be seriously looked at.
 

Ad1234

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Messages
194
The FAA definitely chose those numbers, the union agreed to it. they were supposed to be revisited but I don’t know of a single facility who had their staffing numbers modified that w not part of a consolidation. They were somewhat arbitrary and estimated based on the maximum daily traffic that those places had.

take AGS, i’m sure their entire operation is built around what’s basically 1 to 2 busy weeks a year.

how many of these places are not on mandatory overtime despite being in the 70 and 80% range? if they are not then clearly their number needs to come down. There are facilities that can run perfectly fine with 70-ish percent staffing and won’t have six day work weeks but they also won’t be able to release anyone ever, that’s a case where their total number needs to be seriously looked at.
Based on your argument that numbers need to be reduced because they are fake In some
Cases, which I agree, than consolidation would solve that problem while at the same time getting those people more Money which is also something you want, without Truly losing or reducing the workforce overall number because the numbers that are there aren’t real to begin with. You are then most likely putting people in more desirable areas while at the same time giving them move money, increased pay, and you help the new consolidated facilities and increase the staffing.
How’s that for reading comprehension?
 

Bandit117

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Messages
183
Level 5, RUS, makes a minimum of $69K, as a CPC.
And there are people who make double that as their base, why is it fair to prevent someone who wants to try to advance their career a fair shot at being considered?

The “ they should be happy with what they have“ argument is tired and stupid, When so many peoplemake so much more working for the same employer in the same career field.

Would you rather make $75,000 a year or $150,000 a year?

as I recall, Australia pays all of their air traffic controller‘s the same pay. The difference is working at a busier place means you have the opportunity for more overtime so you can make even more money while a slower quiet place you’re not getting anything extra at all.
 

spider

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Messages
350
I think some of you are overestimating how many are capable of working higher levels. Certainly not all, but a shocking amount are really, really terrible. How do you not understand the difference between a block and a point out but then want to tell me your war stories about how busy your old facility could get because it was a reliever airport? Jesus.

Honestly I wish they would have some sort of screen for anyone who wants to move up to see if it’s worth the time and effort.
 

Ad1234

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Messages
194
And there are people who make double that as their base, why is it fair to prevent someone who wants to try to advance their career a fair shot at being considered?

The “ they should be happy with what they have“ argument is tired and stupid, When so many peoplemake so much more working for the same employer in the same career field.

Would you rather make $75,000 a year or $150,000 a year?

as I recall, Australia pays all of their air traffic controller‘s the same pay. The difference is working at a busier place means you have the opportunity for more overtime so you can make even more money while a slower quiet place you’re not getting anything extra at all.
australia has like 1000 controllers. Not the same as us.
 

Bandit117

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183
australia has like 1000 controllers. Not the same as us.
It’s about 5000, they are roughly 50% of our size so it’s still a valuable comparison. They have a bunch of facilities that are out in the middle of bum fuck nowhere and they realized that if you want quality people working them you need to pay them good money.

if you knew that by putting in a hardship you could make another $50,000 a year, what’s your motivation to not do every single possible thing you can moral or not to try to get out and make more money? if the upper and lower limits of the pay band were more comparable you would be a racing a significant motivation for people to try to leave their facility by any means necessary.
 

Ad1234

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Messages
194
It’s about 5000, they are roughly 50% of our size so it’s still a valuable comparison. They have a bunch of facilities that are out in the middle of bum fuck nowhere and they realized that if you want quality people working them you need to pay them good money.

if you knew that by putting in a hardship you could make another $50,000 a year, what’s your motivation to not do every single possible thing you can moral or not to try to get out and make more money? if the upper and lower limits of the pay band were more comparable you would be a racing a significant motivation for people to try to leave their facility by any means necessary.
There are 29 towers and 2 centers. What’s your source for 5000? That’s 161 per facility. I call bull.
Edit: also they have a population of like 30 million. No way they have half the workforce we do with only 10 percent of the population.

Consolidate and people wouldn’t need to put in hardships nearly as often.
 
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Robertb

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And there are people who make double that as their base, why is it fair to prevent someone who wants to try to advance their career a fair shot at being considered?

The “ they should be happy with what they have“ argument is tired and stupid, When so many peoplemake so much more working for the same employer in the same career field.

Would you rather make $75,000 a year or $150,000 a year?

as I recall, Australia pays all of their air traffic controller‘s the same pay. The difference is working at a busier place means you have the opportunity for more overtime so you can make even more money while a slower quiet place you’re not getting anything extra at all.
I’m not arguing any point. It was asked to state a level 5 making around $60K and I put the bare minimum base pay a level 5 CPC would make which is 15+% above $60K.

If you want my opinion, as I have stated many times over many years, NCEPT is utterly and completely garbage. Also, it can be argued that the bottom of the CPC pay level band is getting a hell of a bargain, in pay, for what they actually do. If you think working at a high level TRACON is only twice as hard because it is twice as much pay, you’re greatly mistaken.
 

mnsalty

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568
Honestly I wish they would have some sort of screen for anyone who wants to move up to see if it’s worth the time and effort.
Even though I only work at a level 4 tower I heard from a guy who knows a guy at a Z that had a screen that was used for area assignments. If you sucked, you went to the easy area. If you didn't suck, you went to the mediocre areas, and if you nailed it you went to the busy areas. People got offended so it turned into a big game of kiss ass.

I wholeheartedly agree with your statements though.
 

yup

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174
Take T75. They have like 25 scopes because they were built to be a level 10 but only use like 5, they consistently let people go via ncept and are now getting 3 more facilities. You’ll now have around 100 employees, making 9+ pay, eligible to go anywhere they want very easily
Check yourself there, Slim... T75 has 22 CPCs on board and six trainees. They’re absorbing two facilities that I know of. They’re going to gain ten or maybe 15 people max, that’ll bring them up to no more than 45 at the very very most.

They’re a 9 now and they’re gaining two level 5s. AZO absorbed three 5s, a 6, and a 7 (source) and they went up one level, going on a second, so I doubt T75 is really looking at an upgrade.

And as far as people being able to leave quick, that’s what they say. Not sure how the staffing numbers will shake out. PIA is open 24/7 already so they have more people there and more people transferring. SPI isn’t, so there are fewer people coming—but the idea is to eventually keep SPI’s airspace with T75 24/7 instead of giving it up to center overnight, so there’s more people you need. And none of the facilities are 100% staffed at the moment anyway, though they may be better off after people got rushed through checkrides just before the training hold.

Now as far as the towers that are left behind after all the consolidation happening around the country... I totally understand NATCA’s position that they want to prevent our jobs being contracted out. But how many people really want to spend their lives at a level 4 in BFE central Illinois, or BFE central Washington, or even Michigan? Someone said a few weeks ago that historically there have only been a handful of level 4s in the NAS. We’re at 18 right now, it’ll be 20+ after the T75 and GEG 804s get done with. That’s a lot of people making not a lot of money to be stuck somewhere doing nothing all day. I bet a lot of them would jump on a “contract the tower and PCS the employees” deal.
 

Bandit117

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183
I think some of you are overestimating how many are capable of working higher levels. Certainly not all, but a shocking amount are really, really terrible. How do you not understand the difference between a block and a point out but then want to tell me your war stories about how busy your old facility could get because it was a reliever airport? Jesus.

Honestly I wish they would have some sort of screen for anyone who wants to move up to see if it’s worth the time and effort.
I wonder how much of that is caused by people going from the facilities that can release which are disproportionately lower level and going right into a busy 11 or 12 because they are trying to chase the paycheck. A more realistic progression would be going from a low level tower to a mid level facility with radar and then from there going into one of the upper level facilities with some experience. but the system doesn’t really allow for that, if you only have one shot you might as well Aim as high as you possibly can, since it’s difficult to predict when your facility might be able to release again.
 

Zizia

Member
Messages
60
name me one level 5 facility that at CPC makes 60ish k a year......

edit:and I agree the union should have a goal of allowing every employee every opportunity, that’s why I think closing and consolidating is a better long term solution than throwing money at people who are more likely to leave way sooner than stay at a bigger consolidated higher paid facility in a more desirable area.who the fuck wants to be at Duluth? M98 can’t handle that approach?
For the record, I would love to go to Duluth :)
 

Bandit117

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183
For the record, I would love to go to Duluth :)
And ironically you can’t because they will never be high enough on the priority list to take someone, unless your facility is able to release every single person there
 

mnsalty

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568
I wonder how much of that is caused by people going from the facilities that can release which are disproportionately lower level and going right into a busy 11 or 12 because they are trying to chase the paycheck. A more realistic progression would be going from a low level tower to a mid level facility with radar and then from there going into one of the upper level facilities with some experience. but the system doesn’t really allow for that, if you only have one shot you might as well Aim as high as you possibly can, since it’s difficult to predict when your facility might be able to release again.
Yeah, the issue is that everyone camps at those 9s and 10s because they're the gravy trains. Lots of the 12s are in shit locations so it leaves people going from low levels right up to 12s. then we have the agency in their infinite wisdom sending prior military hires to desirable level 10s. Makes sense. not.
 

Zizia

Member
Messages
60
And ironically you can’t because they will never be high enough on the priority list to take someone, unless your facility is able to release every single person there
I think throwing more money at the problem will definitely help. No one wants to work at a low level for 80k less than what they could be making somewhere else.
 

mnsalty

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568
And ironically you can’t because they will never be high enough on the priority list to take someone, unless your facility is able to release every single person there
Are you forgetting about the level 9 and below 100% rule? the KSN list is super misleading in the fact that - if conditions are met, lower level facilities can staff to 100% projected (I'd have to log in and look up the exact wording, it's been a while since I completed my ERR to my level 4 tower) but large and by the low level facilities can show 0 for possible gains and still pick up in "round 2."

EDIT obviously getting released from your current facility is a beast of it own.

I think throwing more money at the problem will definitely help. No one wants to work at a low level for 80k less than what they could be making somewhere else.
Some people are perfectly happy at their level 4-7s. Everyone has a different agenda.
 
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