The 1 and None club - AKA the black holes in the System

Bandit117

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183
I know a facility that isn’t on this list that hasn’t had someone get out since a year ago, and that person got picked up the year before and was delayed
What facility? If a number is wrong I want to correct it. Or do you mean it’s been years since they had releases?

This isn’t a year by year tally, it’s a total release. Maybe places released a a few in 2016 and 2017 and are now stuck, this won’t take that into account. This is based purely on the places people haven’t been able to get any, or very very limited movement out of. I know one place on the list had their one selectee go to the new facility and just quit the agency within a few months

Throwing money at the problem is not the answer. Look at n90.
I disagree, low level pay sucks. Talk to people at some of these places. If they were making more money they wouldn’t want to get out as soon as possible and take whatever supe bid/hardship/contract marriage they could. They wouldn’t feel so left behind Or like they were missing out.

imagine you work your ass off To get hired and to get through the academy and you get sent to BIS. Cost of living there is high since the oil boom several years ago and i don’t believe the locality has ever been adjusted from the base. That money don’t go far AND you’re in a place that isn’t very desirable to live. If you gave people more money, they might actually be willing to stay out there.

or a Guam type bid. Go fill in the missing staff here, work for 3-5 years and after that you can go somewhere else
 

Ad1234

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194
I disagree, low level pay sucks. Talk to people at some of these places. If they were making more money they wouldn’t want to get out as soon as possible and take whatever supe bid/hardship/contract marriage they could. They wouldn’t feel so left behind Or like they were missing out.

imagine you work your ass off To get hired and to get through the academy and you get sent to BIS. Cost of living there is high since the oil boom several years ago and i don’t believe the locality has ever been adjusted from the base. That money don’t go far AND you’re in a place that isn’t very desirable to live. If you gave people more money, they might actually be willing to stay out there.

or a Guam type bid. Go fill in the missing staff here, work for 3-5 years and after that you can go somewhere else
Many places are not like BIS And Guam is consistently understaffed. Why do some of these facilities need to even exist? A Tracon somewhere can’t Handle their radar? Contract the slow ass tower out. Get the people who certified a raise by going to a bigger facility, probably a more populated area. Long term it’s a bigger win win than throwing money at people who will never stay in BIS.
 

Bandit117

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Messages
183
Many places are not like BIS And Guam is consistently understaffed. Why do some of these facilities need to even exist? A Tracon somewhere can’t Handle their radar? Contract the slow ass tower out. Get the people who certified a raise by going to a bigger facility, probably a more populated area. Long term it’s a bigger win win than throwing money at people who will never stay in BIS.
they exist because there is traffic there. None of these places are level 4s. It’s not in anyones Long term benefit to close facilities and eliminate ATCS jobs. Someone is going to have to work them, but it shouldn’t have to be for an entire career. They should be turning over people annually, not stuck in a cycle of “when the staffing creeps up but is still well below numbers, we get supe deviations and are back at the beginning”

money motivates people. you obviously don’t know What you’re talking about. Guam pays people a lot of move money, and after their contracted term is up they can go anywhere that’s open. They are hard to staff Bc of location and a so few times a year there is a targeted bid for Guam, because most people don’t want to live there forever. Lately, that bid has been subjected to NCEPT staffing % release requirements.
 

GulfCharlie

Comrade Commissar
FAA
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906
Facility
BNA Nashville Tower
A friend of mine resigned from SHV after 5 years. The place is plagued with hardships, sup bids and had a couple people resign, due to the former two reasons.
I feel like we know the same person XD
 

Ad1234

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Messages
194
they exist because there is traffic there. None of these places are level 4s. It’s not in anyones Long term benefit to close facilities and eliminate ATCS jobs. Someone is going to have to work them, but it shouldn’t have to be for an entire career. They should be turning over people annually, not stuck in a cycle of “when the staffing creeps up but is still well below numbers, we get supe deviations and are back at the beginning”

money motivates people. you obviously don’t know What you’re talking about. Guam pays people a lot of move money, and after their contracted term is up they can go anywhere that’s open. They are hard to staff Bc of location and a so few times a year there is a targeted bid for Guam, because most people don’t want to live there forever. Lately, that bid has been subjected to NCEPT staffing % release requirements.
I think it is in our best interest to consolodate. Because if pushingtin keeps voting republican we will get the white book part 2, then consolidation or worse privatization because that’ll be the only option. Lets do what we can to keep the most we can and keep it strong. How many jobs would Be lost if consolidated? I bet you it’s at most 2-5 per facility. Big freaking deal. Of a projected number of 13k plus now we would go down to 12,750?Holy crap!!!!

you say none of those places are a 4 but many of them are 5/6 up downs. Which means those towers are a 4 or less, much less. So having an approach control at those particular facilities is almost useless. And we are just keeping those facilities unhappy with hardship after hardship and lose people to supe bid after supe bid and forcing people there out of the academy to an unhappy and toxic culture to places they don’t want to go.

I know money motivates people, but again, Guam is consistently understaffed so obviously Guam is a bad example because of location but also shows money isn’t always the strongest motivator people claim it to be.

how much money in Albany or wherever facility would be enough for you? What do you think those people should make to make it worth it?
 

AB19

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Messages
396
What facility? If a number is wrong I want to correct it. Or do you mean it’s been years since they had releases?

This isn’t a year by year tally, it’s a total release. Maybe places released a a few in 2016 and 2017 and are now stuck, this won’t take that into account. This is based purely on the places people haven’t been able to get any, or very very limited movement out of. I know one place on the list had their one selectee go to the new facility and just quit the agency within a few months
Oh if it’s dating back to then we’ve definitely released people, I just know it’s been a while since we’ve been able to let someone go and it’ll be a while before someone else can to. But yeah places in oil towns with rest of us locality is absolute bull shit
 

Bandit117

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Messages
183
I think it is in our best interest to consolodate. Because if pushingtin keeps voting republican we will get the white book part 2, then consolidation or worse privatization because that’ll be the only option. Lets do what we can to keep the most we can and keep it strong. How many jobs would Be lost if consolidated? I bet you it’s at most 2-5 per facility. Big freaking deal. Of a projected number of 13k plus now we would go down to 12,750?Holy crap!!!!

you say none of those places are a 4 but many of them are 5/6 up downs. Which means those towers are a 4 or less, much less. So having an approach control at those particular facilities is almost useless. And we are just keeping those facilities unhappy with hardship after hardship and lose people to supe bid after supe bid and forcing people there out of the academy to an unhappy and toxic culture to places they don’t want to go.

I know money motivates people, but again, Guam is consistently understaffed so obviously Guam is a bad example because of location but also shows money isn’t always the strongest motivator people claim it to be.

how much money in Albany or wherever facility would be enough for you? What do you think those people should make to make it worth it?
Guam is understaffed by design. They pay people lots of money to go and be there and every single person gets to leave by a certain date, Bc it’s a 3R bid. They want to pay the least amount of people so the staffing is on the lighter side, but I don’t hear anyone at Guam saying it’s too much Work to handle. Also you’re not taking into account what the FAA claims be to be required might not really be. Some facility numbers might need to be lowered.
Money is motivating as hell. So is the ability to go wherever you want after your time is up. Guams recent bid to pick up like 4-5 controllers had 60 plus eligible candidates. I don’t know why you’re so fixated on it, it’s an example of how you get people to go in droves to less desirable places.

As I recall, youre not even a controller, so you don’t get an opinion, at least one that is taken seriously. How would you know if an approach control is useful or not to the area?

how much? More than they get now. Make it 100k a year as base, see what that does to staffing and morale.
 

Bandit117

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Messages
183
Oh if it’s dating back to then we’ve definitely released people, I just know it’s been a while since we’ve been able to let someone go and it’ll be a while before someone else can to. But yeah places in oil towns with rest of us locality is absolute bull shit
AZO is still sorting out the 804 right? Still training people or is that pretty much over and done? You guys might be kind of a special case.
 
P

PushingTin

Guest
Your numbers do not account for Dynamic Decisions, and are therefore flawed & unfair to NCEPT. update the algo! Lol @ "locality talk" in oil towns. The great CIP scam could fix all that if it wasn't just a rigged slush fund for politically connected, but it is. Or in 1 facilities case double any other facility and there isn't even any oil there. A Hunger Games styled lottery would be a better system for these black holes. Who will be the first tribute? #BestJobinTheWorld



Math.jpg
 

Ad1234

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Guam is understaffed by design. They pay people lots of money to go and be there and every single person gets to leave by a certain date, Bc it’s a 3R bid. They want to pay the least amount of people so the staffing is on the lighter side, but I don’t hear anyone at Guam saying it’s too much Work to handle. Also you’re not taking into account what the FAA claims be to be required might not really be. Some facility numbers might need to be lowered.
Money is motivating as hell. So is the ability to go wherever you want after your time is up. Guams recent bid to pick up like 4-5 controllers had 60 plus eligible candidates. I don’t know why you’re so fixated on it, it’s an example of how you get people to go in droves to less desirable places.

As I recall, youre not even a controller, so you don’t get an opinion, at least one that is taken seriously.

how much? More than they get now. Make it 100k a year a base, see what that does to staffing and morale.
the faa did not choose those numbers, they collaborated with the union. So that’s what those facilities workforce or union head thought was appropriate. So you can’t just blame the faaGuam is an Important example because If only 60 applied, that number will be significantly less at all the facilities you will offer the same deal to.

You recall from where that I’m not a controller?
This is hilarious, glad my anonymity is in tact. Maybe I should be on that thread.

Many of those facilities with differentials and ot already make close to if not above 100k. If single that’s great money, if you have a family and your spouse works, you are well Into the 100k+. And that’s still not enough? when houses in many of those places are priced significantly lower than rest of us
 

Bandit117

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Messages
183
the faa did not choose those numbers, they collaborated with the union. So that’s what those facilities workforce or union head thought was appropriate. So you can’t just blame the faaGuam is an Important example because If only 60 applied, that number will be significantly less at all the facilities you will offer the same deal to.

You recall from where that I’m not a controller?
This is hilarious, glad my anonymity is in tact. Maybe I should be on that thread.

Many of those facilities with differentials and ot already make close to if not above 100k. If single that’s great money, if you have a family and your spouse works, you are well Into the 100k+. And that’s still not enough? when houses in many of those places are priced significantly lower than rest of us
Jesus h Christ is reading fundamental. Guam had Well over 100 apply but ncept release requirements applied - ie they could only select people at cat 1 and cat 2 facilities. The eligible number If 60 or so was less than the total that applied. That’s a lot of people willing to go out to the middle of nowhere, I bet if you offered them the same deal to go to BIS or ALB they might be willing to at least consider it.

Money can’t buy happiness but it makes things easier. If you’re making comparable money to what you would make at a career goal Facility, you don’t feel like you’re as desperate to leave no matter what or how. Tell someone who has been stuck at a 5 for a decade that they should happy with their 60ish K a year while people who make literally double what they do can freely transfer been upper level facilities as they please. Shouldn’t it be the goal of the union to allow every employee a chance to further their career as high as their skills will take them?
 

Ad1234

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194
Jesus h Christ is reading fundamental. Guam had Well over 100 apply but ncept release requirements applied - ie they could only select people at cat 1 and cat 2 facilities. The eligible number If 60 or so was less than the total that applied. That’s a lot of people willing to go out to the middle of nowhere, I bet if you offered them the same deal to go to BIS or ALB they might be willing to at least consider it.

Money can’t buy happiness but it makes things easier. If you’re making comparable money to what you would make at a career goal Facility, you don’t feel like you’re as desperate to leave no matter what or how. Tell someone who has been stuck at a 5 for a decade that they should happy with their 60ish K a year while people who make literally double what they do can freely transfer been upper level facilities as they please. Shouldn’t it be the goal of the union to allow every employee a chance to further their career as high as their skills will take them?
name me one level 5 facility that at CPC makes 60ish k a year......

edit:and I agree the union should have a goal of allowing every employee every opportunity, that’s why I think closing and consolidating is a better long term solution than throwing money at people who are more likely to leave way sooner than stay at a bigger consolidated higher paid facility in a more desirable area.who the fuck wants to be at Duluth? M98 can’t handle that approach?
 
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Bandit117

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183
name me one level 5 facility that at CPC makes 60ish k a year......
It’s a rhetorical comment. 5 pay is usually adequate but not great.

if you talk to people at these places I don’t think they will say that they have the right to go to the facility of their choice at a time of their choosing.

And yet, If a facility that they would like to go to needs people, they can’t even be considered. That is blatantly wrong. I think the people at these places would just like to be given the opportunity to be considered for promotion. If you get passed over, it happens, but at least you had a fair shot.

The system has been around for four years now and none of these facilities have a training time that long so the issue here is clearly not their fault. Why should controllers Be punished for the FAA ‘s missteps?
 
S

SIXTY-NINE

Guest
The majority of the up/downs probably got a string of academy grads for a while, and if I had to guess most didn't really have a choice in going there. My old facility is on this list and I know that when I got there there were around 9 CPC and 6 or 7 trainees,so throwing money at CPCs isn't going to solve a problem like that. Plus if the bulk of people going to a facility are OTS or Prior EXP the agency isn't going to give a financial incentive outside of CIP for folks to go there. They will simply keep putting it on list until someone takes it.
I mean I'm talking literally double the salary through CIP, it's called golden handcuffs in banking where people are paid such high amounts that they literally cannot leave because taking a job elsewhere would mean a far lower salary. If someone was making $100,000 at a tower doing close to nothing I'm sure they'd just grin and bear it.

I agree consolidation is the long term solution though.
 

Roobtheloob

Active Member
Messages
28
As someone who isn't even in the academy, this isn't the first time this has been discussed right? What can the average person do? Just bring it up to their rep repeatedly till something happens?
 

Ad1234

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194
It’s a rhetorical comment. 5 pay is usually adequate but not great.

if you talk to people at these places I don’t think they will say that they have the right to go to the facility of their choice at a time of their choosing.

And yet, If a facility that they would like to go to needs people, they can’t even be considered. That is blatantly wrong. I think the people at these places would just like to be given the opportunity to be considered for promotion. If you get passed over, it happens, but at least you had a fair shot.

The system has been around for four years now and none of these facilities have a training time that long so the issue here is clearly not their fault. Why should controllers Be punished for the FAA ‘s missteps?
why make a rhetorical comment when trying to make a point? Make your damn point then, don’t skirt the truth because it sounds better for you. None of us make 60ish. And with raises and differentials mostly all of us come very close if not over 100k average as a work force.

You want to keep facilities open and throw money at them and potentially leaving them understaffed because no one might even want to go to elmira or moline or Bismark. All I’m saying is I disagree and I think consolidations will be way more beneficial in the long term. Take T75. They have like 25 scopes because they were built to be a level 10 but only use like 5, they consistently let people go via ncept and are now getting 3 more facilities. You’ll now have around 100 employees, making 9+ pay, eligible to go anywhere they want very easily because of a good training culture and all employees will have access to things because it’ll all be in house, they will have access to trainings and details because they are well staffed, how is that not beneficial for the workforce?
Also ncepts failure and bad long term training cultures exist just as much because of shitty employees as it does faa missteps.
How can anyone really argue with always having facilities staffed to 85 percent? Just because it’s not fair? Seriously go ahead and try to argue why that’s bad?
People get leave, people get training, people can swap shifts easier. So because shit stain number 1 and 2 and 3 have allergies or their wife isn’t happy, you get fucked? They should be the ones that catch the blame Not the faa program that the National union agrees with.
Consolidate and you’ll have less facilities to keep happy.
 

corn4ahead

Trusted Contributor
Messages
487
According to my data, AZO has released 2. 6/17 and 9/17


Do you know what panel that was
I think this is where you could run into a few problems with all your data.

6/17- The controller got selected and then turned down the TOL.
9/17- Controller got selected (and went) to A80.

AZO has NOT be eligible since.

Multiple hardships, internal supe bids, and I think a bid to TMU happened as well.
 
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