The 1 and None club - AKA the black holes in the System

#1349

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I ♥ pointSixtyFive
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I wonder how much of that is caused by people going from the facilities that can release which are disproportionately lower level and going right into a busy 11 or 12 because they are trying to chase the paycheck. A more realistic progression would be going from a low level tower to a mid level facility with radar and then from there going into one of the upper level facilities with some experience. but the system doesn’t really allow for that, if you only have one shot you might as well Aim as high as you possibly can, since it’s difficult to predict when your facility might be able to release again.
That’s what was “proposed” as the solution when it came to transfers: Start low, then transfer middle, and then end high.
As history has shown, that has not, and will never now, be the case.
 

mnsalty

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That’s what was “proposed” as the solution when it came to transfers: Start low, then transfer middle, and then end high.
As history has shown, that has not, and will never now, be the case.
100% agreed


The problem has and always will be the refusal to hire locally.
Yes, but remember the agency doesn't have a problem getting applicants (they generally get 2-3 times the actual workforce every time they put out a bid for OTS) - so until everyone stops claiming they're willing to move all around the country, this is what we get.
 

32andBelow

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100% agreed




Yes, but remember the agency doesn't have a problem getting applicants (they generally get 2-3 times the actual workforce every time they put out a bid for OTS) - so until everyone stops claiming they're willing to move all around the country, this is what we get.
yah I’m saying that system doesn’t work. If the atm going to the local community college or high school I’m sure they can get 10 blokes to sign up.
 

Bandit117

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183
Are you forgetting about the level 9 and below 100% rule? the KSN list is super misleading in the fact that - if conditions are met, lower level facilities can staff to 100% projected (I'd have to log in and look up the exact wording, it's been a while since I completed my ERR to my level 4 tower) but large and by the low level facilities can show 0 for possible gains and still pick up in "round 2."

EDIT obviously getting released from your current facility is a beast of it own.
and that’s just it. You might really want to go to Duluth, but if your facility only can release one and someOne else bids EWR or ZFW your odds of that 1 person being you goes to about zero, if you have to wait until round 2.

You cant even swap anymore, since that is subject to NCEPT release standards.
 
P

PushingTin

Guest
As someone who isn't even in the academy, this isn't the first time this has been discussed right? What can the average person do? Just bring it up to their rep repeatedly till something happens?
the avg person can do nothing. the only reps with any "power" would be in the core 30 facilities or a center rep that had the ear of a powerful RVP. the reps at the Core 30's like NCEPT! it was built for them

then we have the agency in their infinite wisdom sending prior military hires to desirable level 10s. Makes sense. not.
Minnesota really took a hit on the "desirables" list eh Salty? Silver lining, great real estate deals available soon

MN.jpg

Some people are perfectly happy at their level 4-7s. Everyone has a different agenda.
this is true, altho NCEPT has ensured almost all of these facilities will be perpetually loaded w day 1 trainees parading through an endless revolving door

When I was at Level 5 STT(now a 4) I was making north of $85k.....
Lol this is cheating! STT has COLA no one else has. Altho sweet country club!
 

Mike Kilo

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This is one reason I think they should have two stages to NCEPT placement. Put in a level cap of 3 and run the placement. Then, much like the 9 and below to 100% do a second run through the NCEPT lists and remove the restriction.
This would force an upward movement which includes the middle facilities which we all know have gotten screwed by the 4-7 facilities getting new hires and releasing straight to 11-12s. But it would also allow movement in the second wave to make sure the high levels were still able to pick up, if the 8-10 facility controllers didn’t want to go there.
 

RH316

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204
So I have been working on compiling data that has yet to be centralized in a way that is useful with regards to NCEPT. We all hear rumors and hearsay, but I thought I would look into what are the real spots that suck people in. I've gone through all the panels and centralized how many people have been released from where. I am working on the places they have been released to, but this is a good start. I will release my .XLS when its done, but for now the data is sobering. Numbers all from the latest PPT on here. Some make sense, like no one really wants to leave SFB or MRI, those are sweet spots and you make good money with locality etc.

These are the places below a level 10/11/12 that have only released "1 or None". I left out the 15 x 10/11/12's that meet the same criteria because for most people that is a career goal. Overall there are 51 facilities that are in this "club" if you count all levels. If there are errors, they are mine alone. I am still QCing the data to make sure I got it right. Like for some reason I thought EVV and SHV had released people. I went through 17 panels, if there are more, let me know. I got all the panel info from the pdfs in resources section posted here.

levelIDNameReleasesyears avg trainingfacility staff %training success %
6ALBAlbany Tower
0​
2.50​
82.1%​
67.6%​
5BISBismarck TRACAB
0​
1.65​
61.5%​
100.0%​
5DLHDuluth Tower
0​
2.49​
90.0%​
66.7%​
5EVVEvansville Tower
0​
1.56​
82.4%​
57.9%​
6FAYFayetteville Tower
0​
2.12​
54.5%​
65.4%​
5GTFGreat Falls Tower
0​
1.92​
76.5%​
72.4%​
5HUFTerre Haute Tower
0​
2.05​
82.4%​
77.3%​
8ICTWichita Tower
0​
2.86​
83.3%​
77.8%​
9JAXJacksonville Tower
0​
1.96​
72.3%​
50.9%​
5MLIMoline Quad City Tower
0​
1.89​
80.0%​
74.2%​
6MWHGrant County Tower
0​
1.72​
73.3%​
68.8%​
5ROWRoswell Tower
0​
1.85​
66.7%​
81.0%​
6SHVShreveport Tower
0​
1.93​
61.5%​
96.0%​
5TRITri-Cities Tower
0​
2.11​
82.4%​
61.1%​
9ZSUSan Juan
0​
2.47​
61.3%​
67.5%​
6ACYAtlantic City Tower
1​
2.34​
92.3%​
75.0%​
5AGSAugusta Tower
1​
2.36​
73.3%​
85.7%​
6AMAAmarillo Tower
1​
2.26​
86.4%​
71.4%​
5ARBAnn Arbor Tower
1​
0.93​
88.9%​
83.0%​
9CVGCincinnati Tower
1​
1.64​
76.7%​
83.3%​
7GEGSpokane Tower
1​
1.75​
92.9%​
73.1%​
6GGGLongview Tower
1​
2.31​
86.4%​
61.9%​
7GSOGreensboro Tower
1​
1.70​
92.3%​
58.3%​
7HPNWestchester Tower
1​
2.86​
86.7%​
83.3%​
8JCFJoshua TRACON
1​
1.51​
87.5%​
82.8%​
8MCIKansas City International Tower
1​
1.33​
84.6%​
88.5%​
6MRIMerrill Tower
1​
0.57​
109.1%​
100.0%​
9MSYMoiusantt Tower
1​
1.11​
72.2%​
86.4%​
8OKCOklahoma City Tower
1​
1.83​
63.3%​
73.9%​
6PTKPontiac Tower
1​
0.93​
72.7%​
81.0%​
9SATSan Antonio Tower
1​
1.89​
84.4%​
87.5%​
7SBNSouth Bend Tower
1​
2.10​
65.4%​
75.0%​
8SDFStandiford Tower
1​
2.20​
85.1%​
81.5%​
9SFBSanford Tower
1​
0.60​
100.0%​
89.5%​
5SUXSioux Gateway Tower
1​
2.01​
80.0%​
86.7%​
6TUSTucson Tower
1​
0.96​
82.4%​
69.6%​
8Y90Yankee TRACON
1​
2.04​
59.1%​
65.0%​


So the big question is, what do we do about it? How do we fix it? How do we give people hope? I would be very curious to see the number of supe deviations from these places.
Woof.
you couldn’t pay me $150k a year base to go to 85% of these facilities... a lot of them are black holes, whether it’s a mgmt/culture/training issue. Which, directly impact their ability to release people.
I.E. I worked with a guy who was at EVV. He washed out after 2 years.. it’s a 5 UP/Down with a 58% success rate. That place is no bueno.
 
Last edited:

mnsalty

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yah I’m saying that system doesn’t work.
it doesn’t work for you. It works for the FAA however, which never has a shortage of bodies coming in the door.

Obligatory reminder the agency doesn’t give a rats ass about you, your life, your wife, kids, or anything else besides you coming to work and talking to airplanes.

I didn’t say it was right, but it ain’t gonna change.

I worked with a guy who was at EVV. He washed out after 2 years.. it’s a 5 UP/Down with a 58% success rate. That place is no bueno.
what was his background? Sounds like the facility has a culture problem or the got a lot of the same type of new hires.
 

RH316

Trusted Contributor
Messages
204
what was his background? Sounds like the facility has a culture problem or the got a lot of the same type of new hires.
Aviation background, no reason he shouldn’t have checked out there.. that’s according to him. But I trained him at my last facility and thought he was a decent controller. He told me the relationship between mgmt and NATCA is toxic, and just a lot of pissed off controllers.. and that shit rolled down hill onto trainees.
 

Bandit117

Trusted Contributor
Messages
183
Woof.
you couldn’t pay me $150k a year base to go to 85% of these facilities... a lot of them are black holes, whether it’s a mgmt/culture/training issue. Which, directly impact their ability to release people.
I.E. I worked with a guy who was at EVV. He washed out after 2 years.. it’s a 5 UP/Down with a 58% success rate. That place is no bueno.
I have heard really bad things about their ATM. Like “how does this person have a job” bad.
 

Dolan

Trusted Contributor
Messages
322
Obligatory reminder the agency doesn’t give a rats ass about you, your life, your wife, kids, or anything else besides you coming to work and talking to airplanes.

I didn’t say it was right, but it ain’t gonna change.
The agency should realize that all the smart people who get sent to shitholes are going to find out how the system works and hardship out. That, or quit and get rehired etc. That sort of behavior is financially devastating to the taxpayers and it shouldn't be too hard to show the people in charge of NCEPT that this is the case.
 

32andBelow

Legendary Member
Messages
2,613
it doesn’t work for you. It works for the FAA however, which never has a shortage of bodies coming in the door.

Obligatory reminder the agency doesn’t give a rats ass about you, your life, your wife, kids, or anything else besides you coming to work and talking to airplanes.

I didn’t say it was right, but it ain’t gonna change.



what was his background? Sounds like the facility has a culture problem or the got a lot of the same type of new hires.
Obviously it doesn’t work cus they can’t ever get any of these places staffed. You don’t think they can find 50 people that already live in San Juan?
 

JackTBP

Member
Messages
18
how many people really want to spend their lives at a level 4 in BFE central Illinois, or BFE central Washington, or even Michigan?
You never know, central IL (and the others) might still appeal to a few people.
 

DankVectorz

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FAA
Messages
1,186
Facility
N90 New York Tracon
Throwing money at the problem is not the answer. Look at n90.
too early to tell really. They started throwing money and bodies at us only a couple years ago but screwed up the training program initially and then the shutdown and then Covid. My areas first OTS class finished labs just Before Covid. Didn’t even get a chance to hit the floor yet. (2/4 for the first ots class in my area if anyone cares). But we have more trainees than you can shake a stick at currently.
 
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