I just got warned of a "pattern" in my sick leave from taking the last few Fridays off for fatigue leave. How will this affect me, if at all?

DADDYSbabyBIRD said:
Life isn't fair, work some 6 days, call in randomly on other days every few weeks. Problem solved. If you're so chapped that others are getting free leave for other stuff outside of your control you're going to have a very long anger filled career.
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For real, I wouldn’t be looking T two controllers going through alcohol/drug related stuff going “damn, those guys have it made”
 
FloopThePig said:
I get that. I DO work hard. I study even as a CPC. I train all the time. I CIC constantly so supes don't have to. I do complete checklists while others say, "I don't need to do that." I make necessary phone calls for outages and checks where others say "that's not my problem". I do my ELMs without needing to be reminded where some wait until it's too late so they can get credit time to do it. I clock in when I'm supposed to on time, where others come in late and fudge the clock in to show they were here and management knows and doesn't care.

I swear I've tried to do the most I can minus this sick leave recently and I feel targeted. I guess I'll just keep trying and hope it changes.
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Congratulations. Too bad no one will give a fuck most likely. Focus on yourself and do what you need to do to get to where you need to be. Play the fucking game and move on. It sucks, but it is what it is. Be smart about your sick leave usage. Management ultimately decides what is a “pattern”. Don’t make your usage blatantly obvious like calling in on your Friday or Monday to give yourself long weekend twice a month. Management will catch on. Mix it up. Make it one day in the middle of the week here and there, make it an occasional two day stint on your Tue/Wed or Wed/Thur. Once every few months, give yourself a long weekend if you really need it. Don’t get into a fuss over it. Take your spanking and move on.
 
FloopThePig said:
I get that. I DO work hard. I study even as a CPC. I train all the time. I CIC constantly so supes don't have to. I do complete checklists while others say, "I don't need to do that." I make necessary phone calls for outages and checks where others say "that's not my problem". I do my ELMs without needing to be reminded where some wait until it's too late so they can get credit time to do it. I clock in when I'm supposed to on time, where others come in late and fudge the clock in to show they were here and management knows and doesn't care.

I swear I've tried to do the most I can minus this sick leave recently and I feel targeted. I guess I'll just keep trying and hope it changes.
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I'm gonna be honest with you, and this is tough, but nobody cares. Doing the bare minimum (well) and taking every break, contributing to the pac, taking nyquill once a week, these are the things that make good controllers.

I do the necessary phone calls for outages and checks-are you sure it's your job? If nobody else is doing it.

Are checklists optional or required?

The only thing I see here is hard work and what's it get you? People wait to do elms so they can earn credit....OK by being ahead of the game you just lost out on credit. This isn't like other jobs.

Time card stuff call the hotline and inspector General.
 
Phillytroll69 said:
I'm gonna be honest with you, and this is tough, but nobody cares. Doing the bare minimum (well) and taking every break, contributing to the pac, taking nyquill once a week, these are the things that make good controllers.

I do the necessary phone calls for outages and checks-are you sure it's your job? If nobody else is doing it.

Are checklists optional or required?

The only thing I see here is hard work and what's it get you? People wait to do elms so they can earn credit....OK by being ahead of the game you just lost out on credit. This isn't like other jobs.

Time card stuff call the hotline and inspector General.
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Being a good controller and doing what’s right for the collective purpose is what makes a good controller, not “me, mine, myself.. and bare minimum effort.”

Case in point, I’d rather work on a crew of Floops than Phillys, given your mindsets and outlooks. That’s just me.
 
PooseMaGoose said:
Being a good controller and doing what’s right for the collective purpose is what makes a good controller, not “me, mine, myself.. and bare minimum effort.”

Case in point, I’d rather work on a crew of Floops than Phillys, given your mindsets and outlooks. That’s just me.
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There's a balance, clearly me mine and myself is scam for medical stuff once a week and blah blah.

By minimum effort I mean do your job well and that's it. I didn't say don't care, I didn't say be a lazy scumbag controller. The minimum effort is go in, prevent a collision in the nas while prioritizing and expediting the flow of traffic. That's it, the minimum effort is go in, work, break, work, repeat, go home.

Doing too much extra just opens more doors to issues. Take the checklists he's referring to, generally it is the first person that opens to do checks. It is NOT the second person's "job to say did you do the comm checks" (unless it's written in an sop as redundancy for instance)
Now every RECORDED briefing some newly certed try hard did you do comm checks, did you do this, did you do that.

He mentions time cards too. How do you KNOW someone wasn't on site doing duties. Like specifically talking to a sup or something.
FloopThePig said:
I do my ELMs without needing to be reminded where some wait until it's too late so they can get credit time to do it. I clock in when I'm supposed to on time, where others come in late and fudge the clock in to show they were here and management knows and doesn't care.

I swear I've tried to do the most I can minus this sick leave recently and I feel targeted. I guess I'll just keep trying and hope it changes.
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Dude you are not management at your facility. Other people's scams, lies, laziness, and lack of ability are exactly why we pay dues.
 
FloopThePig said:
I'm the "asshole" that always takes the OT because the other assholes can't stay away from heroin and meth, and we have the staffing if I call out on the day I want to that we won't need to call in OT for my call off so idek why it matters if it's a pattern if there is staffing. The other guys don't even want the OT. I was trying to help out, but I've always been told not to be loyal to companies because they don't give a shit about the employee and it shows.
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Bruh play the game and quit stressing
 
Had a supe at my building threaten to refer controllers that call out fatigued to the flight surgeon. I would be curious to see where this goes, because I can’t imagine most doctors saying working six day weeks with a rotating schedule is not fatiguing. Perhaps I am underestimating how much kool aid the flight surgeons drink. Seems like worst case getting referred to the flight surgeon would mean having a break from working traffic, can’t imagine they permanently pull a medical over fatigue. The agency would go from having a body 5 days a week to 0 days a week, but they are probably dumb enough to make that happen.
 
5600k2 said:
Had a supe at my building threaten to refer controllers that call out fatigued to the flight surgeon. I would be curious to see where this goes, because I can’t imagine most doctors saying working six day weeks with a rotating schedule is not fatiguing. Perhaps I am underestimating how much kool aid the flight surgeons drink. Seems like worst case getting referred to the flight surgeon would mean having a break from working traffic, can’t imagine they permanently pull a medical over fatigue. The agency would go from having a body 5 days a week to 0 days a week, but they are probably dumb enough to make that happen.
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YMMV, my flight surgeon at the time was Dr. Susan Northrup, and I ended up using fatigue leave several times until my ATM (for those that know this was waaay back like around 2018) called them out of "concern" aka retaliation. She basically pulled my medical for 3/4 days pending a conversation (over the phone) with her about why I was using it. I told the fatigue usage was due to an overzealous ATM who was trying to strike back at me for using my best judgement and the CBA due to the amount of hours/traffic we were being forced to work without any relief in sight.

Once I explained all that to Dr. Northup, she reinstated my medical, and essentially started to... how to say this... put less stock into what that ATM was telling her. Again your mileage may vary per flight surgeon but Dr. Northrup and I had a frank and honest conversation about it and she understood my point of view.

Edit: Dr. Northrup also wanted to make sure I was not on any additional medical to "cope" with the fatigue.
 
5600k2 said:
Had a supe at my building threaten to refer controllers that call out fatigued to the flight surgeon. I would be curious to see where this goes, because I can’t imagine most doctors saying working six day weeks with a rotating schedule is not fatiguing. Perhaps I am underestimating how much kool aid the flight surgeons drink. Seems like worst case getting referred to the flight surgeon would mean having a break from working traffic, can’t imagine they permanently pull a medical over fatigue. The agency would go from having a body 5 days a week to 0 days a week, but they are probably dumb enough to make that happen.
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So many people fear monger over this and use it as an excuse. They’re not going to pull medicals.
 
5600k2 said:
Had a supe at my building threaten to refer controllers that call out fatigued to the flight surgeon. I would be curious to see where this goes, because I can’t imagine most doctors saying working six day weeks with a rotating schedule is not fatiguing. Perhaps I am underestimating how much kool aid the flight surgeons drink. Seems like worst case getting referred to the flight surgeon would mean having a break from working traffic, can’t imagine they permanently pull a medical over fatigue. The agency would go from having a body 5 days a week to 0 days a week, but they are probably dumb enough to make that happen.
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Let sups and ATMs threaten all they want. They aren’t doctors or medical professionals to any degree and have nothing to do with anyone’s medical aside of keeping your cert on file and calling your servicing flight surgeon out of “concern” when they want to get vindictive. That’s a careful game to be played. They push things too hard and someone will file a grievance for a biased and unvetted medical “opinion” being passed to a medical authority in an attempt to thwart your career. That kind of thing falls under the purview of NO FEAR Act type stuff in the realm of all federal employees, way more high-vis than anything in the slate book.
 
I spent my last 5 years on a constant sick leave letter and my S/L balance never went over 80 hours for my entire 3 decade career. Only negative was that S/L letters make for poor toilet paper, but yeah. I never cared about it and just shrugged my shoulders every time a supe tried to talk to me about it. Eventually I think they just kinda gave up on trying to "counsel me" and just let me be. Obviously this may or not work depending on where you work. I kinda knew getting fired for using my S/L to "rest" was extremely unlikely considering how poorly staffed and how difficult it was to get people in the EWR area at N90. I wasn't the only one doing it either, so there was that. They'd have to fire several of us, and that was just not gonna happen.
 
FloopThePig said:
My level 4-6 has been working overtime 6 day work weeks lately. Just about everyone has been taking an extra day off because of it.

I have been using my earned sick time as fatigue leave for it like I thought I could. My supe just gave me a warning that it's looking like a pattern. Yes I planned on taking sick again this coming Friday because I have OT again at my shit facility and I'm tired.

In my opinion it's my alloted sick leave that I've got a right to use and I've been using it for fatigue leave like I've seen some people mention we can claim. I obviously can't do it every Friday because it will run out since I can't earn it fast enough.

I told the supe "yes I've been taking fatigue leave" for all this OT, I thought that was acceptable?"

He said he doesn't know about that and I've seen him right a warning letter or negative PROC for someone else before for the same issue.

My fac rep is not available these days so I'm looking on here for what is my right and what could happen? I'd like to transfer someday and I'm not the kind to take sick all the time, just lately with the increase in OT being assigned. So I really don't want to be known as a bad employee that might affect a transfer in the future. I also don't want suspension.

I can't imagine y'all working level 10-12 with 6 days and getting some kind of message like this. I'm pretty fed up with this shit. Honestly the supe could fill in if I call out sick so I don't see what the issue is.

My fac rep also agreed with management that we can't take annual right now during our busier traffic scenario or else I'd just as easily be requesting that.

How do I combat this if I take sick and he gives me a meeting and a bad PROC?

How well does "fatigue leave" stand in this argument?

What from the union book can I throw at my supe if he causes a problem?
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Your rep agreed with management to not allow you to take annual just because it's busy? What did he get in return?
 
FloopThePig said:
I guess I'll try to do that. I understand everyone is trying to tell me the "rules of the game", but I'm here trying to argue "why is it a game in the first place?"

We have a union that I've been forking over for since I got in like most. Why can't the union just say "listen management, fuck off. It's their leave, that have a right to use it, and you guys are working all these controllers to the bone with 6 days constantly. That's not safe for airplanes or themselves."

We've got a guy that's off for doing illegal drugs. Doesn't even have to come into work, getting paid as far as I know until it's figured out.

Another had something similar alcohol related, comes to work, sits for an hour, management says go home. Still gets paid 8 hours a day while it's figured out.

Both things that are strictly not allowed, but "hey go home since you can't work, here's your pay".

Ive heard others make obscene comments trying to be funny during meetings. Refresher on keeping airplanes apart, controller comments an obscene comment stating they will do the opposite of that. Supe is right there, chuckles along with it. No repercussions.


I've always tried to be very professional. I come to work I do my job, I refresh up on the 7110, do some training the trainees, I go home. But because I take 3 fucking sick days in a row, that's much worse and worthy of a consequence.

I'm just fed up. I take this job very seriously unlike the few mentioned. This is just a slap in the face.
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Read the contract. Article 25, especially section 7.
 
FloopThePig said:
My level 4-6 has been working overtime 6 day work weeks lately. Just about everyone has been taking an extra day off because of it.

I have been using my earned sick time as fatigue leave for it like I thought I could. My supe just gave me a warning that it's looking like a pattern. Yes I planned on taking sick again this coming Friday because I have OT again at my shit facility and I'm tired.

In my opinion it's my alloted sick leave that I've got a right to use and I've been using it for fatigue leave like I've seen some people mention we can claim. I obviously can't do it every Friday because it will run out since I can't earn it fast enough.

I told the supe "yes I've been taking fatigue leave" for all this OT, I thought that was acceptable?"

He said he doesn't know about that and I've seen him right a warning letter or negative PROC for someone else before for the same issue.

My fac rep is not available these days so I'm looking on here for what is my right and what could happen? I'd like to transfer someday and I'm not the kind to take sick all the time, just lately with the increase in OT being assigned. So I really don't want to be known as a bad employee that might affect a transfer in the future. I also don't want suspension.

I can't imagine y'all working level 10-12 with 6 days and getting some kind of message like this. I'm pretty fed up with this shit. Honestly the supe could fill in if I call out sick so I don't see what the issue is.

My fac rep also agreed with management that we can't take annual right now during our busier traffic scenario or else I'd just as easily be requesting that.

How do I combat this if I take sick and he gives me a meeting and a bad PROC?

How well does "fatigue leave" stand in this argument?

What from the union book can I throw at my supe if he causes a problem?
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Show up and say you are fatigued, ask for other duties.
 

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