Handoffs and How Far Is Too Far

[COWTOWN]

Some guys here are applying the situation to whatever specific context you’re used to seeing at facility X. Flashing early to an adjacent sector is usually harmless or a heads up because it’s all around the outside boundaries. But flashing everyone off the runway when they’re 20000 feet from the ceiling and 50 miles from the boundary to guy that is also on top of you is a bush move because you’re just clogging up the middle his scope for no reason. Or a prop that’s doing 100kts 50 miles from the boundary. If he takes the tag you’re not gonna ship him for 20 minutes. You’re just being annoying because your parents suck.

I wouldn't care, flash them at the boundary for all I care. It's a lot easier for me to have a plan when I know what's coming at me though.

 

[Dousand24]

Right why work together when you can just be a selfish pile of elephant shit for no reason? Everyone in my facility hates everyone in the neighboring facilities and visa versa because there's a handful of people in my facility who are awful at working with others and there's a handful of people at their facilities who are awful at working with others and all these retards are still allowed to work air traffic because 2020 is allergic to accountability.

You must be a joy to have lunch with...

 

[Saltier]

I wouldn't care, flash them at the boundary for all I care.

I care, because I want to make a plan before the guy is 5 miles from my airspace.
edit: also, I don't want to find out 5 miles from the boundary the guy isn't processing correctly or is gonna IF and then I gotta scramble to fix it.

I can't believe people are getting in such a twist over this.

 

[32andBelow]

I care, because I want to make a plan before the guy is 5 miles from my airspace.

I can't believe people are getting in such a twist over this.

Most centers get the guys the same way from tracon so you not usually drive guys into the departures gate

 

[Saltier]

Most centers get the guys the same way from tracon so you not usually drive guys into the departures gate

I don't have the answer to this, i work at a lvl4 vfr tower.
edit: what's a departure gate? is that those things in the terminal where you wait to get on the plane?

 

[32andBelow]

I don't have the answer to this, i work at a lvl4 vfr tower.
edit: what's a departure gate? is that those things in the terminal where you wait to get on the plane?

Lmao.

 

[the inquirer]

Flash them at the distance of a 4 minute vector line. Everyone will be happy.

 

[Phillytroll69]

It's your sector FLASH THEM WHENEVER YOU WANT. If you are taking the handoff, take it when you want.

You have to apreq changes verbally ONCE a handoff has been completed.

The rules are in the 7110

It doesn't say 4 minutes, it doesn't say anything particular. Flash whenever you want. If someone has an issue tell them to change their range

 

[MKK]

It's your sector FLASH THEM WHENEVER YOU WANT. If you are taking the handoff, take it when you want.

You have to apreq changes verbally ONCE a handoff has been completed.

The rules are in the 7110

It doesn't say 4 minutes, it doesn't say anything particular. Flash whenever you want. If someone has an issue tell them to change their range

?

but why. It’s just common courtesy. Not sure why everyone wants to be the annoying guy. Imagine someone at 3000 ft climbing to high at a 1000 per minute. The guy that’s working the high shouldn’t be seeing that flash til like 16000 the soonest. It’s called scanning, safety, efficiency, everything. Just like you are taught to drop data blocks when they’re out of your airspace so you have less things to scan this is the same principle....

most of the time those are the handoffs that I missed because I’m not gonna take a hand off that still more than 10 minutes from my boundary, and then when I get Busy someone has to call for that handoff.
If you initiate the handoff at a reasonable time I can look at it once take it and move on.

 

[Move78]

I care, because I want to make a plan before the guy is 5 miles from my airspace.
edit: also, I don't want to find out 5 miles from the boundary the guy isn't processing correctly or is gonna IF and then I gotta scramble to fix it.

I can't believe people are getting in such a twist over this.

Center always knows what’s coming so there’s no advantage there. And if you’re a tracon you’re not normally on overplayed on top of another tracon.

 

[sumtingwon]

Center always knows what’s coming so there’s no advantage there. And if you’re a tracon you’re not normally on overplayed on top of another tracon.

Not necessarily, KACC is entirely non radar. Until you coordinate a handoff they have no idea what's coming.

 

[32andBelow]

Not necessarily, KACC is entirely non radar. Until you coordinate a handoff they have no idea what's coming.

Why wouldn’t the center get a departure message and the flight plan? The LOA should explain how it will come.

 

[Flashy Vectors]

Auto flash except when it needs to flash through multiple sectors or someone else is sending me 10 minute handoffs

 

[sumtingwon]

Why wouldn’t the center get a departure message and the flight plan? The LOA should explain how it will come.

Because they do not have that capability there. All of the info is relayed during HO coordination. Then once KACC receives info they have the option to amend a different alt other than the LOA or tell the controller to offset the airway right or left by 10 miles. LOAs ONLY explain how the aircraft will exit the RAPCONs airspace to their corresponding fixes (unless otherwise coordinated) to KACC's airspace.

Center always knows what’s coming so there’s no advantage there. And if you’re a tracon you’re not normally on overplayed on top of another tracon.

Why wouldn’t the center get a departure message and the flight plan? The LOA should explain how it will come.

I also forgot to mention ORBD CERAP sometimes you would not know what is coming due to tactical aircraft, as well as satellite departures in the AOR.

 

[32andBelow]

But you have to coordinate a non radar route like 15 mins in advance or as specified in the LOA. and it’s not a radar handoff so it’s kinda irrelevant.

 

[sumtingwon]

But you have to coordinate a non radar route like 15 mins in advance or as specified in the LOA. and it’s not a radar handoff so it’s kinda irrelevant.

No you do not. As I have stated previously, the LOA outlines the procedure already as far as how RAPCONS route traffic to KACC. And you were saying how ALL centers ALWAYS knows what's coming. Granted I get it, in non radar you don't see flashes...

 

[Lvl8twr]

You must be a joy to have lunch with...

Ah yes, because standards and being a professional is so 1990.

 

[32andBelow]

No you do not. As I have stated previously, the LOA outlines the procedure already as far as how RAPCONS route traffic to KACC. And you were saying how ALL centers ALWAYS knows what's coming. Granted I get it, in non radar you don't see flashes...

It must be pretty spelled out if you don’t have to coordinate non radar in advance! Since you could be having a deal 10 Minutes from the boundary

 

[sumtingwon]

It must be pretty spelled out if you don’t have to coordinate non radar in advance! Since you could be having a deal 10 Minutes from the boundary

Hence why the RAPCONs have radar and LOA's for incoming and outgoing aircraft. Worked just fine.

 

[Saltier]

Center always knows what’s coming so there’s no advantage there. And if you’re a tracon you’re not normally on overplayed on top of another tracon.

How do they know what's coming until someone is flashing at them? I'm confused.... I dunno where you work, but plenty of overlying tracon sectors out there, inter or intra facility.

Why wouldn’t the center get a departure message and the flight plan? The LOA should explain how it will come.

So if everything is LOA/procedurally separated, why do we need controllers? You're telling me you're going to protect a route when there are no planes on it because someone might show up? If you saw the flash coming, you'd know if it was gonna work or not.