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Stinger

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1,082
This will happen to my facility in the coming weeks going from cat 2 which I was picked up on to cat 1. Is there an official way of asking for an earlier date as in waiting for the late dec official PPT to come out which shows it? Also are they required to approach you and ask because they became cat 1 or is an earlier release date only required by them if you are the one to ask?
You'll need to wait for the December PPT to come out before anything happens. While you should be offered an earlier release if you want it, I wouldn't recommend waiting for someone to approach you. I'd suggest sending an email to both your facrep and atm saying you'd like the category 1 release, and then go and talk to your atm in person. I only suggest the email because it leaves a record and it's tangible.
 

Hissmeowra

Member
Messages
28
So apparently all deviation requests are suspended effective immediately, pending a review of the process. Does this mean that all Cat 1 releases will now be within 3 months and an extension to 6 months at employee's request is no longer being considered until this review process is done? Or is this extension not part of the deviation process?
 

Stinger

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1,082
So apparently all deviation requests are suspended effective immediately, pending a review of the process. Does this mean that all Cat 1 releases will now be within 3 months and an extension to 6 months at employee's request is no longer being considered until this review process is done? Or is this extension not part of the deviation process?
The extension is not a part of the deviation process.
Deviations are for the ATMs that request to extend a Cat 1 release beyond 3/6 months, and extend Cat 2 releases beyond 12 months.
It also includes requests to select controllers out of the CPC ranks and into TMU and management positions.
 

Hissmeowra

Member
Messages
28
The extension is not a part of the deviation process.
Deviations are for the ATMs that request to extend a Cat 1 release beyond 3/6 months, and extend Cat 2 releases beyond 12 months.
It also includes requests to select controllers out of the CPC ranks and into TMU and management positions.
Great, thank you. So to go about asking for a 6 month Cat 1 release would I just talk to HR?
 

SRM

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2
So apparently all deviation requests are suspended effective immediately, pending a review of the process. Does this mean that all Cat 1 releases will now be within 3 months and an extension to 6 months at employee's request is no longer being considered until this review process is done? Or is this extension not part of the deviation process?
Where did you read about the deviation requests being suspended? I haven't seen it posted anywhere?
 
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vectorwagon

Trusted Contributor
Messages
108
Are staff support specialist jobs considered career progression for purposes of being let go if staffing numbers aren’t above natl avg?
 

NavyTrev

Trusted Contributor
FAA
Messages
54
Facility
PCT Potomac Tracon
Are staff support specialist jobs considered career progression for purposes of being let go if staffing numbers aren’t above natl avg?
I don’t know what type of job a staff specialist is but any movement in the ATO is subject to the national release policy TMU/SUP etc. I don’t think career progression is a thing. They can request a deviation to circumvent the national release policy though.
 

semperfly

Member
Messages
35
Looking at the 1% overall drop every year in staffing is scary. In 10 years we're all doomed to be lifers at one facility!
 

FightingIrish2012

Trusted Contributor
Messages
132
Looking at the 1% overall drop every year in staffing is scary. In 10 years we're all doomed to be lifers at one facility!
Dude that is sacrilege, how can you say that? NCEPT is “working”, go to any NATCA or Agency event they will be more then happy to tell you that (even though staffing % was about 85% when NCEPT started and now it’s down to 81-82%).
 

Maintainvfr

Forum Sage
Messages
276
Dude that is sacrilege, how can you say that? NCEPT is “working”, go to any NATCA or Agency event they will be more then happy to tell you that (even though staffing % was about 85% when NCEPT started and now it’s down to 81-82%).
That number is just CPCs in the system right? An increase in transfers means more CPC-ITs and less CPCs.... So what are we doing here? Either we're blaming NCEPT for not hiring enough people which doesn't make sense, or were saying until staffing is higher there should be no movement until staffing increases. Which I'm pretty sure we don't want
 

Stinger

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1,082
Are staff support specialist jobs considered career progression for purposes of being let go if staffing numbers aren’t above natl avg?
It doesn't count as career progression moving from CPC into the staff support jobs (MSS-1), however it is another career level.
MSS-1 has the same payscale as CPC.
If your facility is not Category 1 or 2, and you get selected for a staff support job, there has to be a deviation requested and approved to hire you, just the same as if you had been selected for any other ATO job.

Career Level: Represents a certain pay level of the position which is based on the technical and/or supervisory or managerial duties and responsibilities common to employees within that pay level. Specifically for the AT Pay Plan, there are five career levels: CPC/TMC/TMS, MSS-1, MSS-2, MSS-3 and MSS-4.
Types of Career Enhancement/Career Progression Movements: ATO CE/CP movements are designed to broaden the experience and qualification of individuals in order to further the mission of the organization. The types of CE/CP movements are determined based on the complexity of the CE/CP assignment as it relates to the position’s level of responsibility, individual’s level of knowledge and experience, span of control, and effect of the position’s work on the organization when the movement is along a recognized career path. All CE/CP moves apply only if the employee has not previously held the same position on a permanent basis.
a. CPC/MSS-1 (BUE) to MSS-2/3/4; MSS-2 to MSS-3/4; MSS-3 to MSS-4.
• Career progression applies when moving to the same facility level, to a higher facility level, or down 3 or fewer facility levels.
• Career enhancement applies to moves 4 or more facility levels down.
 

Stinger

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Staff member
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1,082
Was going to post this in the April 2019 Q2 thread, but applies more to the overall ncept.

I actually might...I'll send an email to a few people in the ALA-100/200/300 divisions and see if they can break it down.
We had 1 go on the NOV NCEPT but that’s all. We had a trainee was last month so our projected tanked. We had 3 retire back to back to back last year but now we’re all young. Haha
Do you know where to steer me to figure it that finance/ala number?
I sent an email to each of the ALA division managers because I didn't know who would be best able to answer my questions. I asked them what criteria they used to calculate that column and what that formula is to arrive at that "losses" number, as well as how often it should be recalculated and updated.
I then got an email back from the manager of the team that does that column. They take into account retirement eligibility, but because actual verification requires review of personnel files that number is just an estimate of when they're first thought to be eligible. Then historical trends are used to project for the year. Then they also estimate other controller losses as well...removals/death/transfers/etc, using rate-based formulas.

I think he tried to be helpful, but didn't actually give me what I was looking for..."what is the formula to calculate this number?" So I replied to it asking if he'd be able to go more in depth and I'm interested purely from a numbers standpoint. No reply, but:

I got a phone call today from one of the NCEPT people. He went over the PPT column-by-column with me. National Training Data (2010-2015) is used for those facilities that have more than 10 data points to average. They won't incorporate the 2016 training data until there's less than 10% of those people that entered training in 2016 still in training...currently at 15-16%. The "retirements/losses" column he said was a number that came from Finance. Basically "take the estimates, multiply by 3, and divide by the training time." (I think...something like that at least.)
Didn't give me exactly what I wanted either, because it amounted to "this is the number Finance gives us." Instead of having it update each month, they'll be going (tentatively) to have the losses number be the same for the entire year, and then update with their yearly reports.

Talked to him for a little bit and I mentioned how it would have been better if there was any kind of heads-up that this last ncept panel was going to change their Round 2 selections and not staff to target. They're looking at future panels to change some things because they're concerned with the CPC average continuing to drop. DEV-3 vs AG and things of that nature to determine if training programs will be affected, and overloading facilities.
 

axman

Trusted Contributor
Messages
94
Was going to post this in the April 2019 Q2 thread, but applies more to the overall ncept.




I sent an email to each of the ALA division managers because I didn't know who would be best able to answer my questions. I asked them what criteria they used to calculate that column and what that formula is to arrive at that "losses" number, as well as how often it should be recalculated and updated.
I then got an email back from the manager of the team that does that column. They take into account retirement eligibility, but because actual verification requires review of personnel files that number is just an estimate of when they're first thought to be eligible. Then historical trends are used to project for the year. Then they also estimate other controller losses as well...removals/death/transfers/etc, using rate-based formulas.

I think he tried to be helpful, but didn't actually give me what I was looking for..."what is the formula to calculate this number?" So I replied to it asking if he'd be able to go more in depth and I'm interested purely from a numbers standpoint. No reply, but:

I got a phone call today from one of the NCEPT people. He went over the PPT column-by-column with me. National Training Data (2010-2015) is used for those facilities that have more than 10 data points to average. They won't incorporate the 2016 training data until there's less than 10% of those people that entered training in 2016 still in training...currently at 15-16%. The "retirements/losses" column he said was a number that came from Finance. Basically "take the estimates, multiply by 3, and divide by the training time." (I think...something like that at least.)
Didn't give me exactly what I wanted either, because it amounted to "this is the number Finance gives us." Instead of having it update each month, they'll be going (tentatively) to have the losses number be the same for the entire year, and then update with their yearly reports.

Talked to him for a little bit and I mentioned how it would have been better if there was any kind of heads-up that this last ncept panel was going to change their Round 2 selections and not staff to target. They're looking at future panels to change some things because they're concerned with the CPC average continuing to drop. DEV-3 vs AG and things of that nature to determine if training programs will be affected, and overloading facilities.
Still seems like a...we have this wild card that we’re gonna use, it’s gonna screw over some facilities... it’s not actually real data and we can’t really give you an answer... but we won’t change it and you must abide by it no matter what... a bunch of crap.
I got the answer that the controller workforce plan(don’t remember if that’s exactly what it was called) MIGHT have an adjusted number in that column, but I couldn’t get a straight answer.
 

vectorwagon

Trusted Contributor
Messages
108
It doesn't count as career progression moving from CPC into the staff support jobs (MSS-1), however it is another career level.
MSS-1 has the same payscale as CPC.
If your facility is not Category 1 or 2, and you get selected for a staff support job, there has to be a deviation requested and approved to hire you, just the same as if you had been selected for any other ATO job.
Ok thanks for clarifying!
 

Naswf

Lurker
FAA
Messages
6
Facility
PDX Portland Tower
You do realize DEN is consistently the highest sought ERR in the country...
I think there are quite a few "green" facilities with people in for DEN. I know of 4 people at one "green" facility alone.
So why is it so under staffed and high on the priority?
It is the dream facility for so many controllers.
I would think it would have fat staffing !
 

Dolan

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Messages
230
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