Pushed to the brink? Another NYT article rehashes all the problems that haven't changed since before Reagan and PATCO

[GulfCharlie]

Desperate yes... Desperate enough to have CTIs who aren't prepared and have no clue and come from a shit ass school who doesn't prepare them for actual 4-7 VFR towers... Terrible idea

I just state the facts, my opinion is irrelevant, though I tire of people judging others by how they were hired. As a direct to facility hire, you either have it or you do not. No inbetween.

 

[AlmostEligible]

Clearly the FAA needs help. When I was going through, one of my classmates was a Bulgarian Captain. We are sending friendly foreign nations through it. I'd rather have that slot filled by a new hire for the FAA when we're in the middle of a staffing crisis. I thought the AF tech school did a decent job teaching fundamentals and basics before reaching my first facility. I also bet people would probably elect to go to Biloxi, MS over OKC.

When I did ATC in the Army we had foreign military pilots training in the traffic pattern at my tower. That's kind of common. Having civilians I don't know about that. I personally liked OKC. A nice downtown and major professional sports. Hung out in Biloxi MS one weekend to gamble. I thought the place was hella lame lol. End of the day though, I'm not picky and am down with ANYTHING that makes staffing better. My facility should have like 270 controllers and we have like 200 or something. It's bad

 

[NotKC]

When I did ATC in the Army we had foreign military pilots training in the traffic pattern at my tower. That's kind of common. Having civilians I don't know about that. I personally liked OKC. A nice downtown and major professional sports. Hung out in Biloxi MS one weekend to gamble. I thought the place was hella lame lol. End of the day though, I'm not picky and am down with ANYTHING that makes staffing better. My facility should have like 270 controllers and we have like 200 or something. It's bad

No I'm talking about foreign military controllers in our tech school.

 

[32andBelow]

Increasing the standards of entering our profession can only be a good thing. I bet you could teach some people to be a surgeon via OJTI too but they don’t…

 

[jorgeluis161]

I just state the facts, my opinion is irrelevant, though I tire of people judging others by how they were hired. As a direct to facility hire, you either have it or you do not. No inbetween.

Let the academy weed out those who can hack it and those who can't. And facilities can determine if they can make it at the facility or not afterwards...

Standards shouldn't be lowered for the sake of getting any random body through the door.... With all these errors standards should be raised...

 

[GulfCharlie]

Let the academy weed out those who can hack it and those who can't. And facilities can determine if they can make it at the facility or not.

Standards shouldn't be lowered for the sake of getting any random body through the door.... With all these errors standards should be raised...

No one is talking about lowering standards, but you cannot deny the logic that the academy is a bottleneck and hence a problem. Sure we can bullshit all day about starting a second academy or running 3 shifts but the reality of the situation is that it is about as likely to happen as North Korea is to become a true Democratic Republic.

You have to do a cost benefit analysis, in the medium and short term future throwing things at the wall and seeing what sticks is perhaps the best way to move forward. Any other goal is nothing more than a pipe dream that will take at least 5-10 years to implement.

Sure we could all play king for a day and say "well this is a simple solution" but in the end it is not. We can works toward those long term goals but we need a more immediate response that saves the agency money and is effective. Standards should not be sacrificed but we are rapidly approaching 2008, which is when the next massive " wave" become eligible.

 

[Dontbotherme]

OKC itself is short staffed. How does the FAA plan to even fix that problem? They can't pump more new hires through OKC without the instructors and RPO's to run the classes. How do you entice more folks from outside the Midwest to move to OKC (of all places) to become instructors after they retire?

Hire controllers that have actually applied to the bids instead of telling them they aren’t qualified when they really mean “Agency need” because you’re at a short staffed facility.

 

[ATC Zero]

Yeah but you’re not offering any ideas. Some would make it just fine. I’m talking terminal side, especially tower. Maybe still do RTF if/when the reach that point.

The other benefit would be the crazy idea of actually telling people where they’ll be working before they accept the job. The way the FAA hires and places people in this job as absolutely asinine.

Correct that placement process is in of itself an added stress while they are trying to pass the academy. Go back to picking up to 5 states, then people would be in driving distance to travel back home on a weekend if they wanted.

 

[DADDYSbabyBIRD]

There are at least 3 different FAAs you can get placed into.

1) right into a high level facility, usually the Z’s. You might not be able to transfer out easily but you’ll be in the top tier of pay. Buying a house, maxing your TSP, these are all things you should be able to do quickly, with the exception of a couple UHCOL Z’s (ZOA and ZNY stick out here). You might not be able to transfer easily unless it’s ZLC or ZDV but at least you’re well above the Median pay, even on D3. You can always bid a supe job and you’ll prolly rank high given that you have high level ATC experience. This is one possibility

3) The 2nd is the advertised FAA. You’ll place right into a low level VFR tower and you’ll be certified in a few months and you’ll probably be picked up somewhere else a few months later. These facilities are revolving doors, each release results in near instant replacement, given how 1 person can be 10% of a facilities staffing. These are the places we’re people get out so often you can afford to wait for THE facility to pick you up, because you know that when it’s time, you will be eligible for release. You don’t have people stabbing each other in the back for Suoervisor jobs or hardships, because they aren’t necessary here. This is a great FAA, and the ones with low time in the agency who bounce direct to their dream facility in a year or 2 wonder why everyone else is so bitter.

3) the third FAA is akin to some kind of purgatory. This is the worst FAA. You’ll place into some up/down with consistently mediocre staffing and releases are few and far between, in some second or third rate city no one is trying to get to. You will take years to certify with the inevitable delays for people ahead of you, waiting for RTF, etc. you aren’t going anywhere soon. Your best shot is a hardship or a supe bid. No matter how piss poor your staffing is they always seem to find an excuse to carve out a sup job. God help you if you get close to numbers, you’ll prolly get 2-3 supe deviations, cutting you off at the knees yet again. You probably won’t be poor, but you’re not able to max your TSP, and you certainly won’t be getting a new boat and vacation house like the guy at the Z you know who stayed across from you at the academy. You’re well below the median pay, and maxing your 5-7 pay band doesn’t even get there. You might be able to release 1 person every 5 years or so. It will be like the hunger games. Friendships and working relationships will be ruined. People will do anything to get a hardship approved, or apply to every supe bid that pops up, because anything is better than this mediocre existence. Even internal supe jobs in your cursed facility will get several people applying, so they can take the job and leave as soon as their year is up. You will be the last person from your academy class still at their first facility. Your friends will be like hey, why are you still at XXX, like you’re staying there on purpose. Your only real hope is a desperation bid to N90 or C90. You won’t even bother with ERRs after a few years, since there’s no hope of ever getting close to numbers, because each time you do they approve a supervisor deviation and you’re back at the bottom. They will send you people from the academy, but it will be the dregs of the class, window lickers who can’t even spell ATC. You might get prior exp who either are ready to go out the gate or maybe you’ll suspect they bribed someone to take their asvab for them. Either way, you will get enough people so that if everyone certifies, which they won’t, you could release one person. Everyone wants to leave though. Not a single person is planning to stay, but you’re all getting stuck there. As before, when all those new people get close, a couple of Supervisor deviations and you’re right back at the bottom again. This is the worst path for a few hire.

There is a fourth FAA, the deeply understaffed higher level facilities that only gets bids, or ERRs, but these are dark places, and I will not utter their names here.

The reality is having the same release policies for 4 vastly different types of facilities is what is called disparate impact - it appears neutral on its face, but it effects each group far differently. It’s no secret that up to 75% of all movement comes out of VFR towers - even high level towers routinely release

Having worked at a low level up/down in a place no one ERRs to, a mid level tower only that only gets ERRs and some prior experience hires where only a few apply to, and a high level super desirable place I can vouch for lots of this being sadly true. I also have found that people at one type of facility will have very little idea or care for the woes of the other types. Ex, at the high level desirable almost no one here understands or cares about NCEPT.

 

[GulfBravoPapa]

Even IF the CTI programs were amazing at prepping ATC trainees. Who wants to pick up 60k in student loans for a 50% washout rate and a 3-5 year CPC timeline to make less than a traveling nurse or if your an aviation geek 1/2 of what a pilots making.

People who want to sleep in their own bed every night, if those are the two professions we are comparing it to.

 

[Shikaka]

Step one for clearing a better way through the academy is revamping the way they evaluate. Ditch the contractor's and the point system, go back to receiving facilities sending out supervisors/NATCA reps to evaluate whether they want someone or not.

Plenty of people who are actually capable of this job are washed for no reason.

 

[SunnyATC]

*retired, medically retired, and quit.. only one quit the agency.

Damn you and your reading comprehension. People retiring at 25 years or the month they turn 50 is the best leverage we have. The Atlanta Tracon person leaving was a great example too of how the golden handcuffs of our pension might not be enough anymore.

They can’t get enough people in retirement to work in OKC for mediocre wages. There is plenty of vacant office space around the country. What is so hard about leasing an office, making some cubicle classrooms and throwing a couple simulators in there? Place it in areas with a lot of retired controllers.

 

[Raise when?]

Increase pay 30% and youll see a dramatic increase in QUALITY applicants and morale will soar.

 

[SunnyATC]

Do they even care about the quality of candidates? Look at supervisor hiring. Qualifications rarely matter anymore. If you don’t need a deviation you will get the job over someone more qualified.

 

[Soul_Controller]

Increase pay 30% and youll see a dramatic increase in QUALITY applicants and morale will soar.

So instead of 50k people applying, you get 200k people. How will the FAA pick the quality applicants from the less qualified ones? A rocket scientist could apply to an open bid and he still has the same lottery chance of getting picked for the thousand slots.

 

[32andBelow]

So instead of 50k people applying, you get 200k people. How will the FAA pick the quality applicants from the less qualified ones? A rocket scientist could apply to an open bid and he still has the same lottery chance of getting picked for the thousand slots.

Increase the requirements

 

[the inquirer]

So instead of 50k people applying, you get 200k people. How will the FAA pick the quality applicants from the less qualified ones? A rocket scientist could apply to an open bid and he still has the same lottery chance of getting picked for the thousand slots.

More atsa tests for aptitude. Only take those over 95%

 

[Soul_Controller]

Increase the requirements

Its the federal government. You got to prove your requirements have something to do with the job. You'd have to pick qualities that have proof of being meaningful to air traffic. The typical gatekeeping elitist bullshit (educational attainment, CTI degree) has no actual statistical backing for air traffic success.

We had the BioQ but everybody cried about that.

 

[Move78]

CTI where the kids had to actually learn about the job and get some skin in the game. Or McDonald’s/reddit AMA. Hmm

One of the reasons it’s hard for us to negotiate is we make it look like anyone could do the job with these insane hiring qualifications

If you get your private pilots license from a university you still need to pass an FAA check ride. So I don’t see why there can’t be FAA screens built into the programs.

This post makes no sense. If anyone could do the job you wouldn’t have our failure rate.

 

[Raise when?]

So instead of 50k people applying, you get 200k people. How will the FAA pick the quality applicants from the less qualified ones? A rocket scientist could apply to an open bid and he still has the same lottery chance of getting picked for the thousand slots.

WASH MORE out at the academy, simple! Increase standards!