Religious Accomodation

[Bandit117]

Bro expected to continue a union detail after quitting the union?!?! Then sued. He needed a baseball bat to the knees. And won money. A lot wrong with our society and "legal" system on display.

The union has to represent people fairly regardless of union membership. I don’t think there’s anything that requires one to be a union member for an article 114 gig, especially if it’s a local one. I don’t know how you remove someone from a detail, and under what grounds you can do so.

The issues are almost certainly related to subsequent retaliation. It may or may not be questionable to remove a perfectly functioning person from a detail, but If say, the rep knew about the persons religious affiliation and then found “the only spot on the boards we have a slot for” despite maybe the person having seniority to hold something else that would give them needed day off, just to spite them for quitting and piss on their beliefs, that stinks and it’s illegal. That’s mick level shit. Natca isn’t even a real union, not without the ability to strike, so don’t give me that baseball bat stuff unless you’re willing to step up yourself.

If you are willing to step up sopranos style and pull out a bat, I suggest you start at the NEB. they have fucked us all over far worse than all the 114s, all the hardships, and all the nonmembers ever have, are, and would be able to fuck us in the future. If anyone deserves a beat down it’s the fucks in charge of this mess, not a guy trying to live his life according to his convictions.

 

[ManBearPig]

The union has to represent people fairly regardless of union membership. I don’t think there’s anything that requires one to be a union member for an article 114 gig, especially if it’s a local one. I don’t know how you remove someone from a detail, and under what grounds you can do so.

The issues are almost certainly related to subsequent retaliation. It may or may not be questionable to remove a perfectly functioning person from a detail, but If say, the rep knew about the persons religious affiliation and then found “the only spot on the boards we have a slot for” despite maybe the person having seniority to hold something else that would give them needed day off, just to spite them for quitting and piss on their beliefs, that stinks and it’s illegal. That’s mick level shit. Natca isn’t even a real union, not without the ability to strike, so don’t give me that baseball bat stuff unless you’re willing to step up yourself.

If you are willing to step up sopranos style and pull out a bat, I suggest you start at the NEB. they have fucked us all over far worse than all the 114s, all the hardships, and all the nonmembers ever have, are, and would be able to fuck us in the future. If anyone deserves a beat down it’s the fucks in charge of this mess, not a guy trying to live his life according to his convictions.

Doesn't need to be a union member to do union shit is dumb. You arent just representing BUEs as a 114, you speak for the Union. It's 100% rational to not have a non-member in that position.

And I'm willing to guess the individuals "convictions" are closer to "conveniences". Fuck lawfare.

 

[GulfCharlie]

Doesn't need to be a union member to do union shit is dumb. You arent just representing BUEs as a 114, you speak for the Union. It's 100% rational to not have a non-member in that position.

And I'm willing to guess the individuals "convictions" are closer to "conveniences". Fuck lawfare.

Not regarding the A114 stuff, but I have known (at least one, no offence to any in the past) serious colleague with extremely strong religious convictions. We had Sat/Sun off and I kid you not he spent most of the day at church/with fam/in reflection etc... He would not curse, treated everyone kindly, served on his church council (not sure what protestants call it tbh) and stood by his beliefs during a time that the government was threatening job loss if you did not do as they "instructed." TLDR: These people with convictions are out there, we cannot swing the axe without hurting a few innocents is my point and nor should we.

 

[Bandit117]

Doesn't need to be a union member to do union shit is dumb. You arent just representing BUEs as a 114, you speak for the Union. It's 100% rational to not have a non-member in that position.

And I'm willing to guess the individuals "convictions" are closer to "conveniences". Fuck lawfare.

I’m sorry you don’t think people are entitled to their rights and protections as enumerated in the law. It’s not “lawfare”, it’s enforcing federal statutes that far too often Companies and government agencies usually see protections as inconveniences and so often have to be litigated. Reasonable accommodation is a cornerstone of workers rights. So is due process. You cant pay lip service to it, like the NEB and the FAA team up to do. I hope you and no one in your family ever has to go to court for denial of such basic rights. I’m not being sarcastic or talking out of my ass here, I really hope you don’t have to experience that because it’s a special level of personal hell. I wouldn’t wish it on my actual enemies.

 

[hpwjuicebox]

Not regarding the A114 stuff, but I have known (at least one, no offence to any in the past) serious colleague with extremely strong religious convictions. We had Sat/Sun off and I kid you not he spent most of the day at church/with fam/in reflection etc... He would not curse, treated everyone kindly, served on his church council (not sure what protestants call it tbh) and stood by his beliefs during a time that the government was threatening job loss if you did not do as they "instructed." TLDR: These people with convictions are out there, we cannot swing the axe without hurting a few innocents is my point and nor should we.

What if someone has convictions to spend time with their kids or family when they are at home on the weekend. Getting a religious accommodation for Saturday or Sunday off is a joke. Your kids only have 2 parents and your wife only one husband(hopefully) they are going to remember all the times you aren’t there. Your religion likely has millions of followers. God won’t remember you weren’t at church.

 

[ManBearPig]

I’m sorry you don’t think people are entitled to their rights and protections as enumerated in the law. It’s not “lawfare”, it’s enforcing federal statutes that far too often Companies and government agencies usually see protections as inconveniences and so often have to be litigated. Reasonable accommodation is a cornerstone of workers rights. So is due process. You cant pay lip service to it, like the NEB and the FAA team up to do. I hope you and no one in your family ever has to go to court for denial of such basic rights. I’m not being sarcastic or talking out of my ass here, I really hope you don’t have to experience that because it’s a special level of personal hell. I wouldn’t wish it on my actual enemies.

I agree enforcing federal protections and rights is important.

I 100% believe in real reasonable accommodation.

I had a whole bunch of shit typed out after the above with real world, first hand examples of assholes using "protections" and "accommodations" to benefit themselves, while screwing their coworkers. But, I've decided I am jaded on the whole thing, probably won't change someone's mind, so it's not worth it.

Not regarding the A114 stuff, but I have known (at least one, no offence to any in the past) serious colleague with extremely strong religious convictions. We had Sat/Sun off and I kid you not he spent most of the day at church/with fam/in reflection etc... He would not curse, treated everyone kindly, served on his church council (not sure what protestants call it tbh) and stood by his beliefs during a time that the government was threatening job loss if you did not do as they "instructed." TLDR: These people with convictions are out there, we cannot swing the axe without hurting a few innocents is my point and nor should we.

That's all fine and good. But, we work a job where someone has to be at work. The system is currently essentially set up that seniority decides who will be there on what days. Does one "god" now trump another? What happens when everyone has a "god" that says they can't be there Saturday during their kids t ball game??

 

[KP-ATC]

When I was hired, I had to sign a form that said I understood that working rotating shifts, nights, weekends and holidays was part of the job and a condition of employment.

 

[Bandit117]

What if someone has convictions to spend time with their kids or family when they are at home on the weekend. Getting a religious accommodation for Saturday or Sunday off is a joke. Your kids only have 2 parents and your wife only one husband(hopefully) they are going to remember all the times you aren’t there. Your religion likely has millions of followers. God won’t remember you weren’t at church.

If you decided that a tenet of your faith or morality requires you to spend a day with your family you could request an accommodation for it.

deeply held beliefs and personal convictions don’t have to be coherent, congruent, enumerated or mainstream and they are not subject to interpretation by the government.

That’s case law. A dude got hired as a welder at a plant and they assigned him to work on a line that makes tanks. He said he was a JW and he thought it was against his religion to work on weapons of war, and asked if he could transfer to the part that make cars, bc there was an opening. They said no, he was fired. He applied for unemployment and the commission said that bc another JW worked on the tank line and there wasn’t anything in JW doctrine about working in a weapons factory he wouldn’t get anything, that his belief wasn’t sincere. On appeal, the us Supreme Court kicked the shit out of the lower court, admonished the IN Supreme Court, and issued a precedent. It’s not up to the government or anyone else to interpret or assign value to your personal beliefs, as it should be.

When I was hired, I had to sign a form that said I understood that working rotating shifts, nights, weekends and holidays was part of the job and a condition of employment.

It’s not a suicide pact or an agreement for indentured servitude. It’s also very possible that your beliefs can change and evolve over time. Tell me you never ever changed your mind 🙃

 

[MJ]

Doesn't need to be a union member to do union shit is dumb. You arent just representing BUEs as a 114, you speak for the Union. It's 100% rational to not have a non-member in that position.

And I'm willing to guess the individuals "convictions" are closer to "conveniences". Fuck lawfare.

There are no non members. It’s a condition of the unions existence.

 

[GulfCharlie]

That's all fine and good. But, we work a job where someone has to be at work. The system is currently essentially set up that seniority decides who will be there on what days. Does one "god" now trump another? What happens when everyone has a "god" that says they can't be there Saturday during their kids t ball game??

I did not say one did, but putting in for an accommodation is allowed regardless of faith.

 

[PooseMaGoose]

That's all fine and good. But, we work a job where someone has to be at work. The system is currently essentially set up that seniority decides who will be there on what days. Does one "god" now trump another? What happens when everyone has a "god" that says they can't be there Saturday during their kids t ball game??

This is why Reasonable Accommodations undergo heavy scrutiny, part of which involves the determination of "undue hardship"... i.e. compromising workplace safety, decreasing workplace efficiency, infringing on the rights of another employee, etc. It's not a perfect system, but literally nothing is in this life. The rhetorical question you're posing assumes the abuse and weaponization of title vii in the civil rights act from the onset. There is and always will be a grey area that divides personal preference and fundamental ideas about morality and purpose which is why we do our best on an individual basis considering all facts (and why we don't go the route of "what happens when everyone has a god.")

 

[FredSmoot]

This is why Reasonable Accommodations undergo heavy scrutiny, part of which involves the determination of "undue hardship"... i.e. compromising workplace safety, decreasing workplace efficiency, infringing on the rights of another employee, etc. It's not a perfect system, but literally nothing is in this life. The rhetorical question you're posing assumes the abuse and weaponization of title vii in the civil rights act from the onset. There is and always will be a grey area that divides personal preference and fundamental ideas about morality and purpose which is why we do our best on an individual basis considering all facts (and why we don't go the route of "what happens when everyone has a god.")

Pretty hard for an agency with a nearly $20 billion dollar budget to say any request causes them “undue hardship”

 

[SunnyATC]

Maybe there wouldn’t be so many issues if we modernized our schedules and could get rid of the “that’s the way it’s always been done” Quit making people work every weekend for the first 20 years of their career and spread things around some.

 

[32andBelow]

Maybe there wouldn’t be so many issues if we modernized our schedules and could get rid of the “that’s the way it’s always been done” Quit making people work every weekend for the first 20 years of their career and spread things around some.

Rotating days off makes it pretty hard to plan stuff or sign up for anything that happens on a weekly basis

 

[PooseMaGoose]

Pretty hard for an agency with a nearly $20 billion dollar budget to say any request causes them “undue hardship”

True. But rarely do organizations, especially ones, the size of the FAA with deep pockets funded by taxpayer dollars suffer because of a cut to the jugular. They suffer because of countless little paper cuts that never end. Allowing the needle to move in the wrong direction for long enough with tiny, seemingly insignificant decisions will make a difference in the aggregate.

 

[KP-ATC]

Maybe there wouldn’t be so many issues if we modernized our schedules and could get rid of the “that’s the way it’s always been done” Quit making people work every weekend for the first 20 years of their career and spread things around some.

Propose something to your local and get it done.

 

[32andBelow]

Propose something to your local and get it done.

Drink!

 

[acutetriangles]

Propose something to your local and get it done.

No. That’s too obvious.

 

[32andBelow]

No. That’s too obvious.

You can’t actually get anything done. It’s just an illusion while the national does whatever they want

 

[KiloZulu]

You can’t actually get anything done. It’s just an illusion while the national does whatever they want

My area votes overwhelmingly in favor of our stupid schedule every year. You're just making excuses.