Remedy for not being given normal NEST facility list?

Fiore

Member
Messages
17
Hey all, so long story short my training was terminated at an 8 up/down in February. I was previously certified at a 5 and 6 so I thought that the process dictates that I get offered every 6 and below in the FAA with a vacancy?

I was offered a list of 5 facilities as if I had withdrawn from training and everyone (facrep, ATM) is acting like this is the normal process for someone in my situation. They don't seem to be very familiar with the NEST and I was wondering if anyone here had any advice. I'm trying to get home and theres both 5's AND 6's in the area that I am absolutely positive have vacancies.
 

FightingIrish2012

Forum Sage
Messages
860
Hey all, so long story short my training was terminated at an 8 up/down in February. I was previously certified at a 5 and 6 so I thought that the process dictates that I get offered every 6 and below in the FAA with a vacancy?

I was offered a list of 5 facilities as if I had withdrawn from training and everyone (facrep, ATM) is acting like this is the normal process for someone in my situation. They don't seem to be very familiar with the NEST and I was wondering if anyone here had any advice. I'm trying to get home and theres both 5's AND 6's in the area that I am absolutely positive have vacancies.
You need to fight this, try to get the RVP involved, they might ignore you and your Fac Rep will hate you for going above their head but it is too important a life changing event to let it go. You are 100% you should be offered every vacancy level 6 and below facility (unless that was abolished in the back door deal and not announced). Maybe the Fac Rep and ATM at your old facility can help if you had a good relationship and want to go back there. Try to find the exact verbiage regarding this on the KSN website, they stripped lots of the info on the NEST pages but the original MOUs should still be there.
 
Messages
15
Hey all, so long story short my training was terminated at an 8 up/down in February. I was previously certified at a 5 and 6 so I thought that the process dictates that I get offered every 6 and below in the FAA with a vacancy?

I was offered a list of 5 facilities as if I had withdrawn from training and everyone (facrep, ATM) is acting like this is the normal process for someone in my situation. They don't seem to be very familiar with the NEST and I was wondering if anyone here had any advice. I'm trying to get home and theres both 5's AND 6's in the area that I am absolutely positive have vacancies.

Your ATM and Facrep are correct. They started doing this a few panels back to prevent people from playing the NEST lottery. Your list should include 5 facilities including the one you were previously certified at if there is a vacancy.
 

FightingIrish2012

Forum Sage
Messages
860
Your ATM and Facrep are correct. They started doing this a few panels back to prevent people from playing the NEST lottery. Your list should include 5 facilities including the one you were previously certified at if there is a vacancy.
Are we sure about that? Looks like the Agency can really cook the books with that. If this guy requested facilities near where he wants to live even if he only gets to choose from 5, why weren’t some of those included?
 
Messages
15
Are we sure about that? Looks like the Agency can really cook the books with that. If this guy requested facilities near where he wants to live even if he only gets to choose from 5, why weren’t some of those included?

I may be wrong but I could have sworn I read a memo that stated they are handling controllers that go through the TRB the same as controllers who voluntarily withdraw from training. I'll check with the facrep when I return to work. Who really knows what is going on with NCEPT and NEST anymore? It seems they change the rules for every single panel.
 

Fiore

Member
Messages
17
Your ATM and Facrep are correct. They started doing this a few panels back to prevent people from playing the NEST lottery. Your list should include 5 facilities including the one you were previously certified at if there is a vacancy.
The NEST documentation is still on ksn as far as how training termination (not withdrawal) is handled. The "last few" panels as you said have all adhered to what's on KSN.

Is this the type of thing I should hire a lawyer for if I don't have any faith in the union?
 

Dolan

Trusted Contributor
Messages
326
If you feel that you've explained to your ATM how the process works and they won't budge, lawyer up 100%.

You are absolutely entitled to every single facility 6 and lower in the country with a vacancy. Every training termination in the current NEST system has received this and I can't fathom why they'd spend money fighting this if everything you've said is correct.
 

FightingIrish2012

Forum Sage
Messages
860
The NEST documentation is still on ksn as far as how training termination (not withdrawal) is handled. The "last few" panels as you said have all adhered to what's on KSN.

Is this the type of thing I should hire a lawyer for if I don't have any faith in the union?
When you say the last few panels all adhered to what’s on KSN, what are you saying is on KSN? Is it still that you get a pick from all facilities with a vacancy or did they amend that and document it on KSN to you just get a pick of five facilities plus your old one if it’s open?
 

Fiore

Member
Messages
17
When you say the last few panels all adhered to what’s on KSN, what are you saying is on KSN? Is it still that you get a pick from all facilities with a vacancy or did they amend that and document it on KSN to you just get a pick of five facilities plus your old one if it’s open?
It might be on this site also but its essentially the order that spells out how this process works:


I'll have to dig it up next time I go in to work
 

Ad1234

Trusted Contributor
Messages
217
If you feel that you've explained to your ATM how the process works and they won't budge, lawyer up 100%.

You are absolutely entitled to every single facility 6 and lower in the country with a vacancy. Every training termination in the current NEST system has received this and I can't fathom why they'd spend money fighting this if everything you've said is correct.

not it’s not absolute. Article 61 section 3 implies But it’s not absolute “a list will be provided for which they qualify” I believe is the language. And I’ve seen nest lists before where The traffic at one level facility is not considered difficult or complex or busy for other same level facilities and they were left off.

Obviously I agree they should be on this persons list but I don’t think this is clear, just because the agency didn’t care before and past practice etc its not always easy to prove. A squeaky whee usually get the grease though
 

Dolan

Trusted Contributor
Messages
326
not it’s not absolute. Article 61 section 3 implies But it’s not absolute “a list will be provided for which they qualify” I believe is the language. And I’ve seen nest lists before where The traffic at one level facility is not considered difficult or complex or busy for other same level facilities and they were left off.

Obviously I agree they should be on this persons list but I don’t think this is clear, just because the agency didn’t care before and past practice etc its not always easy to prove. A squeaky whee usually get the grease though

Section 3: If an employee, who was previously facility certified, transfers and fails to achieve full certification in his/her new facility, he/she will be provided a list of facilities for which he/she qualifies and where a vacancy exists. The employee will select one for reassignment. This list may include the employee's previous facility if a vacancy exists.

It's absolute with zero room for what they're trying to pull. At least go over it with a lawyer OP
 

CLRD4TO

Active Member
Messages
32
It might be on this site also but its essentially the order that spells out how this process works:


I'll have to dig it up next time I go in to work

If the process hasn't changed and there is not a new mou then if you withdrew from training you only get 5 facilities.
 

edds93

Trusted Contributor
Messages
205
Section 3: If an employee, who was previously facility certified, transfers and fails to achieve full certification in his/her new facility, he/she will be provided a list of facilities for which he/she qualifies and where a vacancy exists. The employee will select one for reassignment. This list may include the employee's previous facility if a vacancy exists.

It's absolute with zero room for what they're trying to pull. At least go over it with a lawyer OP
It doesn't say they will be provided a list of ALL facilities they qualify at and a vacancy exists. Doesn't seem like there's much of an argument to be made.
 

Phillytroll69

Trusted Contributor
FAA
Messages
184
Facility
JNU Juneau Tower
let's reverse the order- be provided a list of facilities for where a vacancy exists and which he/she qualifies

so now its all vacant facilities you qualify for be interesting to see what the courts say
 

rugbydog11

Trusted Contributor
Messages
487
let's reverse the order- be provided a list of facilities for where a vacancy exists and which he/she qualifies

so now its all vacant facilities you qualify for be interesting to see what the courts say
Idk... Even in reverse order, it doesn't specify how long the list shall be. It's still just "a list of facilities" but I think the past practices are a much stronger argument where there has been precedent set. Which is probably why they are trying to hide the info and took all that stuff off of KSN.
 

TushingPin

Trusted Contributor
Messages
287
I have found that it literally takes above the RVP to do something about a NEST list. My RVP didn't give a shit and said I should be happy I wasn't fired :/
 

FightingIrish2012

Forum Sage
Messages
860
I have found that it literally takes above the RVP to do something about a NEST list. My RVP didn't give a shit and said I should be happy I wasn't fired :/
It doesn’t really take “above the RVP” to change the NEST list, they have the power to influence/change it but your second part was right, not all but many of them don’t give a shit and have the attitude you should just be happy you aren’t fired and take what is presented.

Idk... Even in reverse order, it doesn't specify how long the list shall be. It's still just "a list of facilities" but I think the past practices are a much stronger argument where there has been precedent set. Which is probably why they are trying to hide the info and took all that stuff off of KSN.
I see what your saying but I know it was once written up somewhere that you would be given a list of every facility your qualified for that has a vacancy. That’s why so many people are still under that impression. Maybe it did change now but it used to be the other way and if it changed it wasn’t well communicated.
 

Phillytroll69

Trusted Contributor
FAA
Messages
184
Facility
JNU Juneau Tower
It doesn’t really take “above the RVP” to change the NEST list, they have the power to influence/change it but your second part was right, not all but many of them don’t give a shit and have the attitude you should just be happy you aren’t fired and take what is presented.
Aren't we paying for them to care? Must be the lack of social events this year
 
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