Santa & Whitaker are negotiating a green Chri$tmas!

So are you saying that CTIs are of better quality than the applicant or not? I said the unhired applicants are underqualified AKA quality sucks and you said

So are the CTIs better qualified than the unhired applicants or not? You are playing both sides of the fence here...

The fact is simple that applicant that are unhired are not quality applicants or they wouldn't be looking at other avenues to hire people.

CTI being better qualified for direct hire does not mean they’re a better quality applicant. It means they’ve been taught things already so to save time they’re able to skip the academy. That does not mean they’re better quality and will certify at a higher rate. Qualified and quality do not mean the same thing in this context.
 
CTI being better qualified for direct hire does not mean they’re a better quality applicant. It means they’ve been taught things already so to save time they’re able to skip the academy. That does not mean they’re better quality and will certify at a higher rate. Qualified and quality do not mean the same thing in this context.
Knowing general concepts of ATC doesn't mean you are "qualified" for the job it means you have general knowledge of the job. With your reasoning we should direct hire all the academy failures of academy past because they have better general knowledge than someone who submitted a resume.
 
Knowing general concepts of ATC doesn't mean you are "qualified" for the job it means you have general knowledge of the job. With your reasoning we should direct hire all the academy failures of academy past because they have better general knowledge than someone who submitted a resume.

Jesus fuck are you just trolling or are you really this simple? A general knowledge of the job makes one more qualified for starting directly at the facility than someone with no knowledge of the job. Not complicated. They’re not starting as fucking CPC’s. Desperate times call for desperate measures.
 
Jesus fuck are you just trolling or are you really this simple? A general knowledge of the job makes one more qualified for starting directly at the facility than someone with no knowledge of the job. Not complicated. They’re not starting as fucking CPC’s. Desperate times call for desperate measures.
Then Hire all the academy failures! I can guarantee 40% of the academy failures would pass at their facilities given enough training time extensions.. desperate time = desperate measures right?

you are exercising cognitive dissonance...
 
Then Hire all the academy failures! I can guarantee 40% of the academy failures would pass at their facilities given enough training time extensions.. desperate time = desperate measures right?

you are exercising cognitive dissonance...
We are out of time and solutions, no one cares at this point. People who still care about how you were hired are ignoring the bigger problems. Let the lawyers handle the legalise, get facilities staffed before the next mass wave in 2028, and for fucks sake approve leave.
 
The general public will care when people die due to a knee jerk reaction.

Lol getting sent directly to the facility to be trained rather than spending 4 months in OKC being taught the same things you’ve already been taught is not going to cause anyone to die. They still have to go through class/labs at their facility, not stert out on the boards day one. Hell, with a good amount of trainees in the pipeline maybe it won’t be so difficult to get rid of the ones that do suck now.

Then Hire all the academy failures! I can guarantee 40% of the academy failures would pass at their facilities given enough training time extensions.. desperate time = desperate measures right?

you are exercising cognitive dissonance...

And you’re exercising idiocy.
 
The general public will care when people die due to a knee jerk reaction.
It is why, and keep in mind I am not a NATCA fanboi, that NATCA wants input in overseeing the training program. There is no perfect solution to the staffing problem but we are at a crossroads and my God someone up top is actually projecting 5-10 years in the future as opposed to "hitting this years quota." Regardless of what happens it will not make everyone happy and those that went to academy (I was a direct hire myself off the first bid in 15') know that it only teaches fundamentals. Fundamentals that can be gained at a level 4/5/6/7 facility. No one is suggesting we take kids and throw them into L30 or S56 but at some point something WILL give. Let us address the problem in the hear and now with a future instead of a band-aid fix. Sink or swim, you either have it or you do not.
 
And you’re exercising idiocy.
Your logic is that CTIs have more general knowledge than random people off the street... This is true I don't disagree...

Academy failures have more knowledge than CTIs... Do you disagree? If you disagree then on what premise?

If the academy failures from academy failures past have more general knowledge than a random CTI why would we not send them to facilities based on the same merit you are trying to justify?

It is why, and keep in mind I am not a NATCA fanboi, that NATCA wants input in overseeing the training program. There is no perfect solution to the staffing problem but we are at a crossroads and my God someone up top is actually projecting 5-10 years in the future as opposed to "hitting this years quota." Regardless of what happens it will not make everyone happy and those that went to academy (I was a direct hire myself off the first bid in 15') know that it only teaches fundamentals. Fundamentals that can be gained at a level 4/5/6/7 facility. No one is suggesting we take kids and throw them into L30 or S56 but at some point something WILL give. Let us address the problem in the hear and now with a future instead of a band-aid fix. Sink or swim, you either have it or you do not.
Never the less my debated point stands... if a CTI is qualified to go to the facility because they have general knowledge then make the academy pass/pass. Failure at the academy doesn't mean the individual would necessarily fail at the facility.

If they do end up taking the route of hiring CTIs or anyone for that matter to anything above a level 7 they need to allow people to freely move VIA NECPT first. Otherwise current controllers that are the most competent based of historic hiring trends are just getting rolled. That or for the Center guy on this forum who says "people are just mad the poors are narrowing the gap with the 5%" Make ATC pay linear ATC regardless of level of facility just get paid the same... Everyone gets paid 130-140K and no one makes 80K or 210K. I Think the latter is an utterly stupid approach but i'm sure the guy who this ATC is overpaid would be fine with it...
 
They had their chance. They failed. That simple.
So you agree they would be just as qualified but since they failed the academy they shouldn't be allowed to go to facility. Even though academy you are not part of the union and once you are at facility you are hard as hell to fire and thu s basically have a job...
 
Never the less my debated point stands... if a CTI is qualified to go to the facility because they have general knowledge then make the academy pass/pass. Failure at the academy doesn't mean the individual would necessarily fail at the facility.

If they do end up taking the route of hiring CTIs or anyone for that matter to anything above a level 7 they need to allow people to freely move VIA NECPT first. Otherwise current controllers that are the most competent based of historic hiring trends are just getting rolled. That or for the Center guy on this forum who says "people are just mad the poors are narrowing the gap with the 5%" Make ATC pay linear ATC regardless of level of facility just get paid the same... Everyone gets paid 130-140K and no one makes 80K or 210K. I Think the latter is an utterly stupid approach but i'm sure the guy who this ATC is overpaid would be fine with it...
Look, fwiw I agree with you on the NCEPT part but the Union much less the agency will not (never say never though) agree to that. The Agency wants to flood the lower levels so that it increases the movement upwards. You cannot have your cake and eat it to in this case, the bean counters will not allow 3 certified bodies to leave without replacements inbound or anything below the 85% threshold.

Academy will be used for OTS hires/ *whatever diversity blah blah insert here* that lack the general knowledge. Pass/Pass solves nothing if there is a lack of knowledge, there has to be a barrier or hurdle to pass to reach the floor. Ironically it also settles (imho NAL) the CTI lawsuit for the past 10 years and makes the "schools" relevant again. By no means am I defending the program

So you agree they would be just as qualified but since they failed the academy they shouldn't be allowed to go to facility. Even though academy you are not part of the union and once you are at facility you are hard as hell to fire and thu s basically have a job...
If their CTI scores / credentials / whatever they use to verify they graduated is still valid they can always reapply when the new announcement comes out, but again hiring is done at the whim of the Agency with no room for logic so "previous academy failures may or may not be considered" as in past announcements, might be the wording.
 
I always thought when people talked shit about some of the hiring process they were just being a bit racist.... just found an FAA report that states they changed the hiring process to make it more diverse. Essentially, white people typically had better qualifications compared to african americans. Straight from the study: "Recruit qualified people to achieve a workforce that fairly represents our society "

Except they didn't make it representative of our society. Our country is 75% white people and only 13% black people (per most recent census). It's like when ESPN talks about how there aren't enough black coaches in the NFL... well of course their isn't. They make up way less of the population.


From a study the FAA released:

MQ = Minimum Qualifications (MQs). The ATCS minimum qualifications are customized to each applicant source. The minimum qualification review is carried out in two stages: automated system screening and manual HR review.

Scroll down to: Table 1. ATCS Minimum Qualifications by Applicant Source to see how people were compared.

"MQ screening dramatically alters the overall diversity of the applicant pool that moves forward in the hiring process. For example, prior to any screening, 32% of all applicants are African Americans and 48% are White. However, following the MQ screening, 16% of all applicants moving forward are African American while 65% are White. Moreover, this is the stage at which at least 80% of applicants from the most diverse sources are eliminated."



All those people saying there is a lower quality of trainee being hired aren't wrong. The original hiring method was actually representative of our country.
You would have a point if academy didn't exist. It does and still has to be passed so your argument about the quality of trainee is meaningless.

If academy is worthless as a screen then sending CTI direct to facilities direct is probably a good idea. But it does leave a blatant diversity problem. People with the time and money to get a degree get an easier path even though studies show CTI degrees are meaningless for facility success.

So can we stop pretending that efforts to give more people a shot at the job is somehow unfair to white people. The unfairness is making hoops for some people and no hoops for others.
 
You would have a point if academy didn't exist. It does and still has to be passed so your argument about the quality of trainee is meaningless.

If academy is worthless as a screen then sending CTI direct to facilities direct is probably a good idea. But it does leave a blatant diversity problem. People with the time and money to get a degree get an easier path even though studies show CTI degrees are meaningless for facility success.

So can we stop pretending that efforts to give more people a shot at the job is somehow unfair to white people. The unfairness is making hoops for some people and no hoops for others.
U can have both a cti track, an ots track, a vet track, and a prior xp track.
Monitor facility success rates from each. And each school. Cya in 10 years
/thread
 
UPDATE:

To all you negative Nancy's who cant accept that we are on the brink of something transformational for this career field... I can tell you beyond any doubt that the Nick & Jamaal campaign is extremely negative, dark, and bummed tonight. Why do you think its been so radio silent? Nick is a member of the NEB & wasnt born yesterday..they know what is hapening! They know its crippling to their bullshit campaign. They arent going to be associated w the RAZE WEN movement, their the dweebs on the side saying but...but...but... as we are counting our lemon pepper tendies LETS GOOO.

puppet GIF
 
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UPDATE:

To all you negative Nancy's who cant accept that we are on the brink of something transformational for this career field... I can tell you beyond any doubt that the Nick & Jamaal campaign is extremely negative, dark, and bummed tonight. Why do you think its been so radio silent? Nick is a member of the NEB & wasnt born yesterday..they know what is hapening! They know its crippling to their bullshit campaign. They arent going to be associated w the RAZE WEN movement, their the dweebs on the side saying but...but...but... as we are counting our lemon pepper tendies LETS GOOO.

puppet GIF
Have you looked up the definition of parity pay you are definitely not using that correctly

Pay parity is the practice of paying people equitably. This means that those in the same job and location receive fair pay relative to each other regardless of their race, gender, sexuality, or any other identity.
 
UPDATE:

To all you negative Nancy's who cant accept that we are on the brink of something transformational for this career field... I can tell you beyond any doubt that the Nick & Jamaal campaign is extremely negative, dark, and bummed tonight. Why do you think its been so radio silent? Nick is a member of the NEB & wasnt born yesterday..they know what is hapening! They know its crippling to their bullshit campaign. They arent going to be associated w the RAZE WEN movement, their the dweebs on the side saying but...but...but... as we are counting our lemon pepper tendies LETS GOOO.

puppet GIF
 

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UPDATE:

To all you negative Nancy's who cant accept that we are on the brink of something transformational for this career field... I can tell you beyond any doubt that the Nick & Jamaal campaign is extremely negative, dark, and bummed tonight. Why do you think its been so radio silent? Nick is a member of the NEB & wasnt born yesterday..they know what is hapening! They know its crippling to their bullshit campaign. They arent going to be associated w the RAZE WEN movement, their the dweebs on the side saying but...but...but... as we are counting our lemon pepper tendies LETS GOOO.

And to all the naysayers like this clown BOOTS who cucks himself w every post.... you will be made to look like an ass in the end. Your comeuppance is coming and coming fast. I wouldnt be surprised if this ginger simp deletes his account after the MOU is dropped. No more crying for MJ to ban people or mod people, jut one simple question will remain... how does my AZZ TASTE? parity pay is coming and it couldnt happen at a better time, as an ATCer you shouldnt want to be anywhere other than right here right now. If you doubt it ask your RVPs and watch them squirm LOL

puppet GIF
I would expect an announcement next week after the holiday.
 
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