N90 to PHL

[Dolan]

They think N90 washes people out so we can keep our OT. That’s the “ scam”.

You can complain about that perception all you want but the anecdotes are everywhere now. I love that reddit post with the guy waiting 1 and a half years to hit the floor only to have his training terminated after like 2 weeks

 

[DankVectorz]

You can complain about that perception all you want but the anecdotes are everywhere now. I love that reddit post with the guy waiting 1 and a half years to hit the floor only to have his training terminated after like 2 weeks

yes anonymous washouts on Reddit are well known for giving a whole account of the story. I don’t know his story, he wouldn’t even say which area he washed from (I know it wasn’t EWR) other than he says he washed out after like 4-5 weeks on the floor which is still like 40% of pre-Covid traffic here. Idk how anyone can wash that fast on the floor honestly.

 

[CoffeeIV]

I'm surprised nobody is worried about the precedent this sets. The FAA is going into a building without consulting the local union or even management, and just dropping a memo that says they're taking the area and moving it with no input or discussion for the safety/workforce problems it may cause. We're talking about a complex area in a complex facilities. That should worry people. If they can do it at n90 they can do it at our facilities too.

If the FAA pulls this off it is not a good thing for us. Sure some people might get to go to PHL, but it's going to be a clusterfuck there for a long time if this happens and I wouldn't be so happy to hitch myself to it.

For a group of people that seem so outspoken against the government mandating things and infringing on rights when it comes to vaccines, it's crazy that nobody seems to have an issue with this.

N90 has had years to fix the problem of training. Everything the FAA could do was done. Special bids, extra training pay. checkout bonuses to trainers, move money to get CPCs elsewhere to come, NYC only bids.

What did that amount to? N90 controllers calling it blood money when outsiders came. I heard a rumor that more is coming. One extreme was to kill N90 off entirely and give the airspace to others. PHL is about to take more I hope.

 

[SporadicVectors]

N90 has had years to fix the problem of training. Everything the FAA could do was done. Special bids, extra training pay. checkout bonuses to trainers, move money to get CPCs elsewhere to come, NYC only bids.

What did that amount to? N90 controllers calling it blood money when outsiders came. I heard a rumor that more is coming. One extreme was to kill N90 off entirely and give the airspace to others.

Weird saying this but what more can the FAA do? Usually they do nothing. In this case, they tried ALOT.

 

[DankVectorz]

N90 has had years to fix the problem of training. Everything the FAA could do was done. Special bids, extra training pay. checkout bonuses to trainers, move money to get CPCs elsewhere to come, NYC only bids.

What did that amount to? N90 controllers calling it blood money when outsiders came. I heard a rumor that more is coming. One extreme was to kill N90 off entirely and give the airspace to others. PHL is about to take more I hope.

The “blood money” refers to something back in the early 2000’s or 90’s (well before my time anyway) where people were given $100k to come here. I guess the people here were pissed they were here already and not given anything. Or at least that’s my understanding, as I said it was long ago.

The other things you mention, DID work, or weren’t given enough time to work, or were implemented in such terrible ways they backfired. For example, the special bids and ots hires to N90 starting in 2017/18 if I recall correctly. We still don’t know if that would work, because

A) they sent over 100 trainees in less than a year.

B) they did this in conjunction with a new FAA mandated training program which severely limited how many positions you could be training on at once, and forbid training in a position if it was combined with a position you weren’t training in, and instead of doing all the labs before hitting the floor, broke up the lab to individual positions as you progressed. But you had to wait to have a full class before you could actually start the next lab, meaning if you got certified in your first 2 positions fast, you have to wait for the other 3 people to catch up. This caused a MASSIVE backlog. This was the main reason that there were people who got here 3 years ago haven’t even gone to class/lab yet. They got rid of it after a few months when it became obvious it was as bad an idea as we told them it would be, but the damage was done.

Then throw in covid, and well, at least in my area 3/4’s of all those OTS hires from 2017/18 still haven’t gone to class. And now they all got moved to different areas to start all over again because they weren’t given the option to go to PHL. And all this happened on top of the THIRTY TWO withdrawals when NCEPT got announced and left a gap where we had no trainees left. I got here in 2014 and was dead last in seniority for CPC’s in my area until this year.

But people are successful here. In my area alone we’ve certified 5 people just this year between April and now after training was allowed again (all CPC-IT, 2 from level 5 up/downs, level 7 up/down, level 11 tower). Unfortunately 6 people have retired though lol. Which is the crux of it. We HAVE been certifying people, but more have been retiring.

Not even going to get into the terrible foundation the Academy training gives an OTS hire going to a level 12 Tracon. We shouldn’t have to be teaching you what the methods of radar identification are, that should be something you know coming here.

 

[Termine]

In my area alone we’ve certified 5 people just this year between April and now after training was allowed again (all CPC-IT, 2 from level 5 up/downs, level 7 up/down, level 11 tower).

Well shit, maybe I'll send in an application then.

 

[N90-EWR]

N90 has had years to fix the problem of training. Everything the FAA could do was done. Special bids, extra training pay. checkout bonuses to trainers, move money to get CPCs elsewhere to come, NYC only bids.

What did that amount to? N90 controllers calling it blood money when outsiders came. I heard a rumor that more is coming. One extreme was to kill N90 off entirely and give the airspace to others. PHL is about to take more I hope.

DankVectorz answered well this, so not much I can add to that. The staffing situation did not happen overnight. It happened over the course of two decades and change of neglect. While the location does play a part, the airspace complexity is not gonna change by physically moving the EWR area to PHL. If anything, it's going to make it much worse, not only for us controllers, but for the users too.

 

[ManBearPig]

Should have moved N90 off L.I. 20 years ago. Lol ole Chuckie Schumer telling the NiW people it would not happen under his watch.

 

[N90-EWR]

Should have moved N90 off L.I. 20 years ago. Lol ole Chuckie Schumer telling the NiW people it would not happen under his watch.

Easier said than done. Move where? I'm not sure if you fully understand the logistical nightmare that is to move all of N90 areas out of LI. This move of the EWR area to PHL has already been delayed a lot (probably not done being pushed back either). Who would take all the other areas? Will JFK and LGA be split apart from each other too? That also would have a lot of procedural ramifications.

While it's true that Schumer was vocal against it, I honestly don't think it would had made a difference even if he was for it, As 20 years ago we were under different NATCA national leadership, and no doubt that they would had fought that move with everything they had. The G. W. Bush administration was very committed to playing hardball against us, so if they had really wanted to do it, they would had tried it in spite of whatever position Schumer had on it.

N90 is a very unique facility, and not easy to move. Splitting it up like what's going on with the EWR area is actually extremely stupid, but the repercussions to the users won't be seen until after the fact. I actually expect them to reverse this move at some point in the future when they truly realize what they've done. The airspace around EWR-LGA-JFK is meant to be together in the same room. Anyone that has worked in either of the three areas knows why, but the decisions are being made by bureaucrats that have very little, or no operational knowledge of how this airspace works.

 

[Phillyman2633]

I actually expect them to reverse this move at some point in the future when they truly realize what they've done.

The FAA has spent the last 10 years consolidating approaches and there are 15 more consolidations in the pipeline right now. This is the test run to see if everything runs smoothly before they bust the rest of the building up. They're sending ZSU to ZMA and SJU approach to RSW...the consolidations are only getting bigger. There are whispers of breaking up ZNY and sending the airspace to ZOB, ZDC, and ZBW because SWAP is the biggest crock of shit in the NAS.

As long as there are override lines, there's no reason the approach sectors can't be separated.

 

[CF]

The FAA has spent the last 10 years consolidating approaches and there are 15 more consolidations in the pipeline right now. This is the test run to see if everything runs smoothly before they bust the rest of the building up. There are whispers of breaking up ZNY and sending the airspace to ZOB, ZDC, and ZBW.

As long as there are override lines, there's no reason the approach sectors can't be separated.

Eventually there’s just going to be one giant tower in Kansas that all the tower controllers go to to work all of the airports in the NAS

 

[32andBelow]

The FAA has spent the last 10 years consolidating approaches and there are 15 more consolidations in the pipeline right now. This is the test run to see if everything runs smoothly before they bust the rest of the building up. They're sending ZSU to ZMA and SJU approach to RSW...the consolidations are only getting bigger. There are whispers of breaking up ZNY and sending the airspace to ZOB, ZDC, and ZBW because SWAP is the biggest crock of shit in the NAS.

As long as there are override lines, there's no reason the approach sectors can't be separated.

You’d think they’d just take some of that infrastructure bill money and build a NY combined facility somewhere

 

[Phillyman2633]

Eventually there’s just going to be one giant tower in Kansas that all the tower controllers go to to work all of the airports in the NAS

You JEST but remote towers are becoming a thing...they would theoretically save the FAA billions in building new towers.

You’d think they’d just take some of that infrastructure bill money and build a NY combined facility somewhere

Make Utica Great Again

 

[32andBelow]

Make Utica Great Again

I wonder if they’ll actually build any new centers with that 50 billion they are getting

 

[ManBearPig]

Easier said than done. Move where? I'm not sure if you fully understand the logistical nightmare that is to move all of N90 areas out of LI. This move of the EWR area to PHL has already been delayed a lot (probably not done being pushed back either). Who would take all the other areas? Will JFK and LGA be split apart from each other too? That also would have a lot of procedural ramifications.

While it's true that Schumer was vocal against it, I honestly don't think it would had made a difference even if he was for it, As 20 years ago we were under different NATCA national leadership, and no doubt that they would had fought that move with everything they had. The G. W. Bush administration was very committed to playing hardball against us, so if they had really wanted to do it, they would had tried it in spite of whatever position Schumer had on it.

N90 is a very unique facility, and not easy to move. Splitting it up like what's going on with the EWR area is actually extremely stupid, but the repercussions to the users won't be seen until after the fact. I actually expect them to reverse this move at some point in the future when they truly realize what they've done. The airspace around EWR-LGA-JFK is meant to be together in the same room. Anyone that has worked in either of the three areas knows why, but the decisions are being made by bureaucrats that have very little, or no operational knowledge of how this airspace works.

I think splitting it is stupid. They should have just built a whole new building and moved everything to Connecticut or even north of the White Plains area. Or even Jersey. I think a lot more experienced controllers would give N90 a try if it wasn't in such a terrible location. The short term pain of the move, and it would be a giant PITA, would be worth the long term health of the facility.

 

[32andBelow]

I think splitting it is stupid. They should have just built a whole new building and moved everything to Connecticut or even north of the White Plains area. Or even Jersey. I think a lot more experienced controllers would give N90 a try if it wasn't in such a terrible location. The short term pain of the move, and it would be a giant PITA, would be worth the long term health of the facility.

Do they do a lot of verbal coordination or something? Why do the areas have to be together?

 

[ManBearPig]

Do they do a lot of verbal coordination or something? Why do the areas have to be together?

Don't know, but it sounds like there is based on what the N90 guy says. And I think with the complexity and density of that airspace, it makes sense to have an idea of what is going on with your neighbor.

 

[Phillyman2633]

I wonder if they’ll actually build any new centers with that 50 billion they are getting

I think it's only 5b

 

[32andBelow]

I think it's only 5b

Damn that’s prolly only like half a center

 

[Dolan]

yes anonymous washouts on Reddit are well known for giving a whole account of the story. I don’t know his story, he wouldn’t even say which area he washed from (I know it wasn’t EWR) other than he says he washed out after like 4-5 weeks on the floor which is still like 40% of pre-Covid traffic here. Idk how anyone can wash that fast on the floor honestly.

Yeah you're right he was clearly lying what was I thinking