IFR helicopter departure from uncontrolled movement

[TushingPin]

Pretty basic here, can you give a IFR helicopter a release from non movement area? Why or why not? Additionally, if you cannot, can you give a release off a taxiway then? It doesn't appear to mention anything in 3-10.

 

[dingalings99]

3−11−2. HELICOPTER TAKEOFF CLEARANCE

b. If takeoff is requested from non−movement areas, an area not authorized for helicopter use, or an area off the airport, and, in your judgment, the operation appears to be reasonable, use the following phraseology instead of the takeoff clearance in subparagraph a.

 

[TushingPin]

3−11−2. HELICOPTER TAKEOFF CLEARANCE

b. If takeoff is requested from non−movement areas, an area not authorized for helicopter use, or an area off the airport, and, in your judgment, the operation appears to be reasonable, use the following phraseology instead of the takeoff clearance in subparagraph a.

But this doesn't explicitly say IFR or VFR. I guess what I'm looking for is if it says that you cannot do it.

 

[Spaceforce]

It says it’s at pilots own risk. They can depart off an uncontrolled ramp/hospital.

 

[liter a cola]

I would venture to say most hospital helipads are uncontrolled and we have IFR ops in and out of them all the time.

But the question was from a non movement area, it can be done, it's at the pilots own risk.

 

[TushingPin]

I would venture to say most hospital helipads are uncontrolled and we have IFR ops in and out of them all the time.

But the question was from a non movement area, it can be done, it's at the pilots own risk.

So as an approach controller tower will ask you for a release on a guy from the main ramp, and then you say departure from the main ramp at your risk and then cleared on course?

 

[Super Salt]

So as an approach controller tower will ask you for a release on a guy from the main ramp, and then you say departure from the main ramp at your risk and then cleared on course?

You would either approve/deny the release request.

Tower will issue the “departure will be at pilot’s own risk” and any further instructions if the pilot request to depart from a non-movement area.

You’re overthinking the scenario. IFR/VFR/SVFR, it is all the same if they choose to depart from a non-movement area.

 

[rhombus]

Pretty basic here, can you give a IFR helicopter a release from non movement area? Why or why not? Additionally, if you cannot, can you give a release off a taxiway then? It doesn't appear to mention anything in 3-10.

It’s kind of a murky area if there’s no departure procedure from that non-movement area because it’s not TERPS’d out. The only real legal way to do it would be departing them from a runway with a DP or having them depart VFR until they’re over the runway and then have them squawk their IFR code and join a DP

 

[TushingPin]

It’s kind of a murky area if there’s no departure procedure from that non-movement area because it’s not TERPS’d out. The only real legal way to do it would be departing them from a runway with a DP or having them depart VFR until they’re over the runway and then have them squawk their IFR code and join a DP

So theoretically...... Departure from the main ramp at your own risk, then join the profile of the runway to then apply approaches restrictions? This was my thought process, but a coworker told me that since a runway is terps'd out for climbouts etc, that you CANNOT give it off a non-movement area, which I disagree with. Just looking for .65 solid references EITHER way. The problem with 3-10 is that it doesnt state explicitly IFR/VFR/SVFR, etc.

 

[rune]

5-6-3

 

[rhombus]

So theoretically...... Departure from the main ramp at your own risk, then join the profile of the runway to then apply approaches restrictions? This was my thought process, but a coworker told me that since a runway is terps'd out for climbouts etc, that you CANNOT give it off a non-movement area, which I disagree with. Just looking for .65 solid references EITHER way. The problem with 3-10 is that it doesnt state explicitly IFR/VFR/SVFR, etc.

Exactly. Definitely not clear. And it depends where that non-movement area is. If it’s right next to the runway maybe it’s included in the TERPS area?

 

[DankVectorz]

But this doesn't explicitly say IFR or VFR. I guess what I'm looking for is if it says that you cannot do it.

It doesn’t say because it doesn’t matter

 

[ajmezz]

On the rare occasion we did have an ifr helo we would launch them off the parallel taxiway and they’d fly the sid. Can’t help you with any actual rules but it was from a place under quite a microscope and nobody ever said anything about it.

 

[rhombus]

So theoretically...... Departure from the main ramp at your own risk, then join the profile of the runway to then apply approaches restrictions? This was my thought process, but a coworker told me that since a runway is terps'd out for climbouts etc, that you CANNOT give it off a non-movement area, which I disagree with. Just looking for .65 solid references EITHER way. The problem with 3-10 is that it doesnt state explicitly IFR/VFR/SVFR, etc.

If you get reaaaaalllly bored at work pull up the 8260.3. It gets into all the calculus for TERPS. Or better yet have management contact the POC for the region and they can probably get you the data for the specific runway/area in question.

 

[TushingPin]

Thanks all. I think I have enough evidence to support my stance

 

[RH316]

we do it all the time here as long as the weather is VFR. Coordinate with departure, a heading and alt. Prior.
“N12345 departure will be at your own risk not in sight from the tower. Use caution, wind 190 @ 6 altimeter 29.92 fly heading 060 climb maintain 2000.” Switch em to departure. If the weather is IFR we take them to a Taxiway or Runway.

 

[MJ]

So as an approach controller tower will ask you for a release on a guy from the main ramp, and then you say departure from the main ramp at your risk and then cleared on course?

Whatever your normal departure instructions would be. The departure point is completely irrelevant to approach, you're just providing IFR separation.

 

[TushingPin]

Whatever your normal departure instructions would be. The departure point is completely irrelevant to approach, you're just providing IFR separation.

I understand that from an approach point. But I was poorly attempting to paint the picture of what I was asking. This question is still (atleast for me) more pointed at the towers ability to do it or not. I feel the consensus is that it CAN be done, but you won't find it specifically in the .65 that says you can (or cannot)

 

[Phanatical]

4-3-2

1. (b) Locations without Airport Traffic Control Service, but within a Class E surface area* specify direction of takeoff/turn or initial heading if necessary. Obtain/solicit the pilot’s concurrence concerning a turn or heading before issuing them in a clearance.
   NOTE: Direction of takeoff and turn after takeoff can be obtained/solicited directly from the pilot, or relayed by an FSS, dispatcher, etc., as obtained/solicited from the pilot.
2. (c) At all other airports Do not specify direction of takeoff/turn after takeoff. If necessary to specify an initial heading to be flown after takeoff, issue the initial heading so as to apply only within controlled airspace.

 

[32andBelow]

It’s kind of a murky area if there’s no departure procedure from that non-movement area because it’s not TERPS’d out. The only real legal way to do it would be departing them from a runway with a DP or having them depart VFR until they’re over the runway and then have them squawk their IFR code and join a DP

Not every airport has a departure procedure. You can be IFR still. The pilot is just responsible for their climb on course