IFR helicopter departure from uncontrolled movement

[TushingPin]

Pretty basic here, can you give a IFR helicopter a release from non movement area? Why or why not? Additionally, if you cannot, can you give a release off a taxiway then? It doesn't appear to mention anything in 3-10.

 

[dingalings99]

3−11−2. HELICOPTER TAKEOFF CLEARANCE

b. If takeoff is requested from non−movement areas, an area not authorized for helicopter use, or an area off the airport, and, in your judgment, the operation appears to be reasonable, use the following phraseology instead of the takeoff clearance in subparagraph a.

 

[DankVectorz]

But this doesn't explicitly say IFR or VFR. I guess what I'm looking for is if it says that you cannot do it.

It doesn’t say because it doesn’t matter

 

[Super Salt]

So as an approach controller tower will ask you for a release on a guy from the main ramp, and then you say departure from the main ramp at your risk and then cleared on course?

You would either approve/deny the release request.

Tower will issue the “departure will be at pilot’s own risk” and any further instructions if the pilot request to depart from a non-movement area.

You’re overthinking the scenario. IFR/VFR/SVFR, it is all the same if they choose to depart from a non-movement area.

 

[eltors0]

TERPS has no bearing on a departure or arrival going into a nonmovement area when it is predicated on the pilot accepting that it will be at their own risk. The whole point that you cannot use the normal phraseology to clear them from a nonmovement area, but you use good judgement to advise them if you can or when you are able accommodate the operation and then remind them that it will be at their own risk. TERPS wasn’t designed to develop procedural protection for areas not routinely or commonly used for controlled operations. The TERPS angle is moot and you’re all overthinking it.

 

[MJ]

I understand that from an approach point. But I was poorly attempting to paint the picture of what I was asking. This question is still (atleast for me) more pointed at the towers ability to do it or not. I feel the consensus is that it CAN be done, but you won't find it specifically in the .65 that says you can (or cannot)

I understand. The other posts already source it, but there's no delineation between IFR/VFR departure from a nonmovement area because there is none. The "at your own risk part" is addressing the pilots transition from ground to IFR flight. With your coworkers argument, a helicopter would never be able to depart IFR from anything other than a controlled movement area at an airport.

 

[32andBelow]

So if I helicopter departs from a non-movement area IFR and joins an ODP is their entire flight at their own risk just because they didn’t depart from a runway? Maybe I’m misunderstanding you but that phraseology only removes a controllers liability when the helicopter is on the ground and takes off. Once they’re airborne and in controlled airspace they are your responsibility

And aircraft departing without an ODP is responsible for their climb to their failed course. At least that’s how we do it where I work.

Genuinely curious, how would you read a clearance to someone departing IFR from an airport without a departure procedure? Direct the first fix? In the absence of climb gradients I could see that getting dicey around terrain in IFR conditions

Cleared as filed via first fix

 

[RH316]

we do it all the time here as long as the weather is VFR. Coordinate with departure, a heading and alt. Prior.
“N12345 departure will be at your own risk not in sight from the tower. Use caution, wind 190 @ 6 altimeter 29.92 fly heading 060 climb maintain 2000.” Switch em to departure. If the weather is IFR we take them to a Taxiway or Runway.

 

[MJ]

So as an approach controller tower will ask you for a release on a guy from the main ramp, and then you say departure from the main ramp at your risk and then cleared on course?

Whatever your normal departure instructions would be. The departure point is completely irrelevant to approach, you're just providing IFR separation.

 

[32andBelow]

It’s kind of a murky area if there’s no departure procedure from that non-movement area because it’s not TERPS’d out. The only real legal way to do it would be departing them from a runway with a DP or having them depart VFR until they’re over the runway and then have them squawk their IFR code and join a DP

Not every airport has a departure procedure. You can be IFR still. The pilot is just responsible for their climb on course

 

[DankVectorz]

Genuinely curious, how would you read a clearance to someone departing IFR from an airport without a departure procedure? Direct the first fix? In the absence of climb gradients I could see that getting dicey around terrain in IFR conditions

It’s why you say “when entering controlled airspace”. How they get to controlled airspace is on the pilot.

 

[NLeebu12]

The way I personally handle an OPD situation with an antenna we have to the west on an IFR departure is to ask the pilot “are you able to maintain your own terrain and obstruction clearance up to 900 feet?” If they respond affirmative then it’s “departure from the ramp will be at your own risk, proceed on course, wind XXX at XX.” Any other direction than west is just APREQing a heading with Departure. That being said Louisiana is pretty flat…

 

[TushingPin]

3−11−2. HELICOPTER TAKEOFF CLEARANCE

b. If takeoff is requested from non−movement areas, an area not authorized for helicopter use, or an area off the airport, and, in your judgment, the operation appears to be reasonable, use the following phraseology instead of the takeoff clearance in subparagraph a.

But this doesn't explicitly say IFR or VFR. I guess what I'm looking for is if it says that you cannot do it.

 

[Spaceforce]

It says it’s at pilots own risk. They can depart off an uncontrolled ramp/hospital.

 

[liter a cola]

I would venture to say most hospital helipads are uncontrolled and we have IFR ops in and out of them all the time.

But the question was from a non movement area, it can be done, it's at the pilots own risk.

 

[TushingPin]

I would venture to say most hospital helipads are uncontrolled and we have IFR ops in and out of them all the time.

But the question was from a non movement area, it can be done, it's at the pilots own risk.

So as an approach controller tower will ask you for a release on a guy from the main ramp, and then you say departure from the main ramp at your risk and then cleared on course?

 

[rune]

5-6-3

 

[ajmezz]

On the rare occasion we did have an ifr helo we would launch them off the parallel taxiway and they’d fly the sid. Can’t help you with any actual rules but it was from a place under quite a microscope and nobody ever said anything about it.

 

[rhombus]

So theoretically...... Departure from the main ramp at your own risk, then join the profile of the runway to then apply approaches restrictions? This was my thought process, but a coworker told me that since a runway is terps'd out for climbouts etc, that you CANNOT give it off a non-movement area, which I disagree with. Just looking for .65 solid references EITHER way. The problem with 3-10 is that it doesnt state explicitly IFR/VFR/SVFR, etc.

If you get reaaaaalllly bored at work pull up the 8260.3. It gets into all the calculus for TERPS. Or better yet have management contact the POC for the region and they can probably get you the data for the specific runway/area in question.

 

[TushingPin]

Whatever your normal departure instructions would be. The departure point is completely irrelevant to approach, you're just providing IFR separation.

I understand that from an approach point. But I was poorly attempting to paint the picture of what I was asking. This question is still (atleast for me) more pointed at the towers ability to do it or not. I feel the consensus is that it CAN be done, but you won't find it specifically in the .65 that says you can (or cannot)