IFR helicopter departure from uncontrolled movement

[TushingPin]

Pretty basic here, can you give a IFR helicopter a release from non movement area? Why or why not? Additionally, if you cannot, can you give a release off a taxiway then? It doesn't appear to mention anything in 3-10.

 

[Mike Kilo]

Not every airport has a departure procedure. You can be IFR still. The pilot is just responsible for their climb on course

I would assume there isn’t a tower/approach controlled airport without DPs. Sounds like OP isn’t asking about an approach control issuing a release off of an uncontrolled airport.

 

[MJ]

I understand that from an approach point. But I was poorly attempting to paint the picture of what I was asking. This question is still (atleast for me) more pointed at the towers ability to do it or not. I feel the consensus is that it CAN be done, but you won't find it specifically in the .65 that says you can (or cannot)

I understand. The other posts already source it, but there's no delineation between IFR/VFR departure from a nonmovement area because there is none. The "at your own risk part" is addressing the pilots transition from ground to IFR flight. With your coworkers argument, a helicopter would never be able to depart IFR from anything other than a controlled movement area at an airport.

 

[32andBelow]

I would assume there isn’t a tower/approach controlled airport without DPs. Sounds like OP isn’t asking about an approach control issuing a release off of an uncontrolled airport.

Yah I’m just saying that him taking off from a spot that doesn’t have a DP doesn’t mean he has to be VFR.

 

[eltors0]

TERPS has no bearing on a departure or arrival going into a nonmovement area when it is predicated on the pilot accepting that it will be at their own risk. The whole point that you cannot use the normal phraseology to clear them from a nonmovement area, but you use good judgement to advise them if you can or when you are able accommodate the operation and then remind them that it will be at their own risk. TERPS wasn’t designed to develop procedural protection for areas not routinely or commonly used for controlled operations. The TERPS angle is moot and you’re all overthinking it.

 

[COWTOWN]

Not every airport has a departure procedure. You can be IFR still. The pilot is just responsible for their climb on course

Not every radar facility allows ifr departures without a departure procedure.

 

[rhombus]

TERPS has no bearing on a departure or arrival going into a nonmovement area when it is predicated on the pilot accepting that it will be at their own risk. The whole point that you cannot use the normal phraseology to clear them from a nonmovement area, but you use good judgement to advise them if you can or when you are able accommodate the operation and then remind them that it will be at their own risk. TERPS wasn’t designed to develop procedural protection for areas not routinely or commonly used for controlled operations. The TERPS angle is moot and you’re all overthinking it.

So if a helicopter departs from a non-movement area IFR and joins an ODP is their entire flight at their own risk just because they didn’t depart from a runway? Maybe I’m misunderstanding you but that phraseology only removes a controllers liability when the helicopter is on the ground and takes off. Once they’re airborne and in controlled airspace they are your responsibility

Not every airport has a departure procedure. You can be IFR still. The pilot is just responsible for their climb on course

Genuinely curious, how would you read a clearance to someone departing IFR from an airport without a departure procedure? Direct the first fix? In the absence of climb gradients I could see that getting dicey around terrain in IFR conditions

 

[32andBelow]

So if I helicopter departs from a non-movement area IFR and joins an ODP is their entire flight at their own risk just because they didn’t depart from a runway? Maybe I’m misunderstanding you but that phraseology only removes a controllers liability when the helicopter is on the ground and takes off. Once they’re airborne and in controlled airspace they are your responsibility

And aircraft departing without an ODP is responsible for their climb to their failed course. At least that’s how we do it where I work.

Genuinely curious, how would you read a clearance to someone departing IFR from an airport without a departure procedure? Direct the first fix? In the absence of climb gradients I could see that getting dicey around terrain in IFR conditions

Cleared as filed via first fix

 

[DankVectorz]

Genuinely curious, how would you read a clearance to someone departing IFR from an airport without a departure procedure? Direct the first fix? In the absence of climb gradients I could see that getting dicey around terrain in IFR conditions

It’s why you say “when entering controlled airspace”. How they get to controlled airspace is on the pilot.

 

[Super Salt]

Has the question(s) been answered? Because if so, close this thread. This is beyond overkill.

 

[Termine]

Genuinely curious, how would you read a clearance to someone departing IFR from an airport without a departure procedure? Direct the first fix? In the absence of climb gradients I could see that getting dicey around terrain in IFR conditions

I assume this is spelled out more officially in an AC or JO somewhere, but for a start, this is from the Instrument Procedures Handbook:

When an instrument approach is initially developed for an airport, the need for an ODP is assessed. If an aircraft may turn in any direction from a runway within the limits of the assessment area and remain clear of obstacles that runway passes what is called a diverse departure assessment, and no ODP is published. A diverse departure assessment ensures that a prescribed, expanding amount of required obstacle clearance (ROC) is achieved during the climb-out until the aircraft can obtain a minimum 1,000 feet ROC in non-mountainous areas or a minimum 2,000 feet ROC in mountainous areas. Unless specified otherwise, required obstacle clearance for all departures, including diverse, is based on the pilot crossing the departure end of the runway (DER) at least 35 feet above the DER elevation, climbing to 400 feet above the DER elevation before making the initial turn, and maintaining a minimum climb gradient of 200 ft/ NM, unless required to level off by a crossing restriction, until the minimum IFR altitude is reached.

So if the airport has been TERPSed out and deemed "safe" then there won't be a problem with you just saying "cleared as filed" or "cleared direct FIRSTFIX then as filed." If the airport has been deemed unsafe there will be a departure procedure to use instead.

It’s why you say “when entering controlled airspace”. How they get to controlled airspace is on the pilot.

This has always been a little strange to me, because "controlled airspace" is 700' AGL which is well below our MVA. Of course we give vectors off the towered airport too but that's different because it's a towered airport and we're ensuring terrain-and-obstacle clearance, but we can't really ensure that at a non-towered airport, so why am I allowed to do that? And for that matter, why does controlled airspace even exist below the MVA (not in conjunction with an airway, anyway)? That's never made sense in my mind.

In any case, the correct phraseology from 4–3–2 is exactly what you said,

WHEN ENTERING CONTROLLED AIRSPACE (instruction), FLY HEADING (degrees) UNTIL REACHING (altitude, point, or fix) BEFORE PROCEEDING ON COURSE.

. I've definitely heard people—maybe even instructors at RTF?—say

ENTER CONTROLLED AIRSPACE HEADING (degrees)

which is a not-insignificant distinction.

 

[flyingfin]

I would assume there isn’t a tower/approach controlled airport without DPs. Sounds like OP isn’t asking about an approach control issuing a release off of an uncontrolled airport.

checking in from an updown with no dps

 

[Mike Kilo]

checking in from an updown with no dps

Not even an obstacle departure procedure? Pretty basic fly this route to not hit trees or Costco?

 

[NLeebu12]

The way I personally handle an OPD situation with an antenna we have to the west on an IFR departure is to ask the pilot “are you able to maintain your own terrain and obstruction clearance up to 900 feet?” If they respond affirmative then it’s “departure from the ramp will be at your own risk, proceed on course, wind XXX at XX.” Any other direction than west is just APREQing a heading with Departure. That being said Louisiana is pretty flat…

 

[flyingfin]

Not even an obstacle departure procedure? Pretty basic fly this route to not hit trees or Costco?

not even an ODP

legit nada

 

[32andBelow]

not even an ODP

legit nada

Is there a DVA?

 

[flyingfin]

Is there a DVA?

Negative

 

[DankVectorz]

If there’s not an ODP or DP, then most likely it was found one was not needed. Standard ops for pilots are to not start any turns til 400’ (assuming no odp or sid etc) so if that 400’ is sufficient an odp isn’t needed